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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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bonanza
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Killing vs. Stopping.
      #162887 - 27/06/10 10:07 PM

Regarding dangerous game, 4000-5000 Ft/Lbs with .375-.500" projectile has proven to be a good killer. How about stopping a charge? Is a .500 or .577 nitro class necessary or just insurance?

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ozhunter
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: bonanza]
      #162888 - 27/06/10 11:54 PM

No doubt a 500NE or biger would be the calibre preferable in the event of a full blown Elephant charge. But one must be practical and I believe a 470 is as heavy (recoil, bulk and Weight) that "I am" comfortable to use on a drawn out Elephant, Buffalo or Lion tracking hunt in extreme heat in such places as the Zambezi valley.

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grandveneur
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: bonanza]
      #162941 - 29/06/10 12:38 AM

Quote:

Regarding dangerous game, 4000-5000 Ft/Lbs with .375-.500" projectile has proven to be a good killer. How about stopping a charge? Is a .500 or .577 nitro class necessary or just insurance?



Very difficult to respond to your question, i deleted two times my reply ! We are again by the question or the fact : It's better to use big bores on big game or are medium bores sufficent for this job ?

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grandveneur
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: bonanza]
      #162942 - 29/06/10 12:57 AM

On the other side, i am surprised by the poor number of reply's ! Where are all the experienced big game hunters of this forum, in particular the users of medium bores on big game ?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
      #162945 - 29/06/10 01:05 AM

I've only ever been charged by a rabbit and it was blind as well and actually heading for its warren.

But I was almost charged by a hog deer one time, except again it was only running up hill and when it saw me it diverted and ran past. I actually fumbled the reload and had it been a real mean hog deer it would have had me! But I had already shot it and it died a few metres in the thick ferns behind me.

The CLOSEST to a dangerous game charge was a scrub bull which I had shot too far back with a flanking or arse shot. Then another to the chest when it turned. Then IT DID come CHARGING down the hill snorting and looking for me. However this Elmer Fudd hid behind a tree to reload his .450 DR and then popped around and shot it again in the shoulder/chest, a huge spray of blood in the air and it collapsed.

So one reason few might be answered is real charges are often quite rare outside of magazines and the internet.

IMO anyway.

Hopefully some guys can comment though from real experience.

I do like the idea of my .450 NE double rifle with 480 gr RNSP or FMJs if ever needed for this purpose though.

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John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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grandveneur
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: ozhunter]
      #162946 - 29/06/10 01:09 AM

If you hunt often big game, statiscally you have sometimes a attack ! A big bore is more that a insurance because your mother ( or the PH ! ) is not always behind you !

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xausa
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
      #162947 - 29/06/10 01:12 AM

I have never experienced a charge from an elephant or buffalo, but I have shot several buffalo using frontal shots, both with my .505 and with my .458. In every occasion the buffalo succumbed to the shot, but not immediately. My only experience with a charge was with a black rhino, and true to what I had read and heard, turning him was not a problem. In fact, he did as neat a 180 degree turn after the first shot as I could imagine.

My advice would be to use as heavy a caliber as you can comfortably shoot with under stressful conditions, keeping in mind that you will be pumped full of adrenaline when the time comes. Accuracy is much more important than brute force. Blazing any number of shots into an animal's carcass is far less effectual than one shot in the right place.

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grandveneur
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. *DELETED* [Re: xausa]
      #162948 - 29/06/10 01:24 AM

Post deleted by grandveneur

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grandveneur
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. *DELETED* [Re: grandveneur]
      #162953 - 29/06/10 01:50 AM

Post deleted by grandveneur

Edited by grandveneur (29/06/10 01:50 AM)

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grandveneur
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. *DELETED* [Re: grandveneur]
      #162955 - 29/06/10 01:56 AM

Post deleted by grandveneur

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poprivit
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
      #162984 - 29/06/10 09:08 AM

OK, all I've done is stop a Cape Buffalo at 6 yards. He'd already taken one to the chest area and wasn't coming very fast, but he sure wanted a piece of me, or at least looked like it, and I wasn't going to discuss the matter at length.

Rifle: Remington .416 Rem. Mag. Load: Hornady 400-gr Soft Point. Last shot went just under the nose. The bullet looked like it had been stepped on by Superman. Not a real charge, however exciting enough for me.

If it wasn't such a pain for a Luddite like me to post photos, I'd show you a few. The Remington had a KDF muzzle brake, and NO ONE would stand near that gun. LOUD!

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: poprivit]
      #162987 - 29/06/10 09:56 AM

6 yards! Wow, you know they don't want to be your friend when they get that close.

I've only ever seen charges on DVD - Cape Buffalo and Elephant. Big bores and body shots aren't always instant stoppers. I've even see an asiatic water buffalo take 6 well placed shots (behind the shoulder) from a 9.3x74 (?) double before it fell over. The buffalo did run in this case, but the other way, and the shooter had to chase it.

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Ben
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #163053 - 30/06/10 09:15 AM

I haven't experienced a proper charge myself. My only experience is as follows:

- A friend of mine had wounded a bull buffalo with my .416 Rigby, and when he approached to finish it, the buffalo came at him. My friend turned and ran as fast as he could back to where we were. I snatched a .308 from a fellow who had his hands full with a video camera (that wasn't working), but by that time, the buffalo had veered-off slightly and stopped, whirling around to face my friend again. I shot the buffalo side-on on with the .308, and must've hit the spine, because he dropped. The buffalo chased my friend for about twenty metres, and maintained a distance of twenty metres behind my friend. The buffalo had been galloping, and my friend was sprinting.

- Another friend of mine had killed a scrub bull with his .375 H&H. We walked up to it, eyeing the accompanying scrub bull who was quite agitated about seventy metres away. I asked if I could borrow the rifle to kill this second bull, and started advancing toward a small tree just ahead to get a steady rest. The bull began to run toward us, but not directly; it ran in a shallow arc, and I hit it twice in the chest at about fifty metres as it galloped, and it crashed. I then put a finisher in. The ammunition was factory 300 grain soft points.

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Ripp
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Ben]
      #163062 - 30/06/10 01:00 PM

Just read an interesting article on this regarding actually shooting a .577 on elephant..an important item on the report was the velocity of the ammo used in 2 seperate cases on two bulls --the bullets failed to penetrate..later chronographed it was found the ammo was only traveling at 1800 fps...not enough, per the article, to penetrate the big bulls of Botswana..

Have had several PH'S tell me, again, for the big bulls as those in Botswana, 2300 fps is near ideal..

Based on the above, think the biggest gun one can handle and shoot accurately and provide the needed penetration is the way to go...have never felt a need to use anything bigger than my .416 but plan to use the .470 on my next ele hunt anyway...

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Ripp]
      #163069 - 30/06/10 04:19 PM

Quote:

Just read an interesting article on this regarding actually shooting a .577 on elephant..an important item on the report was the velocity of the ammo used in 2 seperate cases on two bulls --the bullets failed to penetrate..later chronographed it was found the ammo was only traveling at 1800 fps...not enough, per the article, to penetrate the big bulls of Botswana..

Have had several PH'S tell me, again, for the big bulls as those in Botswana, 2300 fps is near ideal..



Ripp,

I would question that conclusion. Not from experience with shooting an elephant with a .577 shooting bullets at 1800 fps, but from a gut feel.

Also the 2300 fps, most, if not all, of the big NE cartridges, shoot at the muzzle slower than this, usually around 2000 fps to 2100 fps, and have always seemed pretty effective to me.

A lot of magazine articles always seem to me to have a lot of "writer's licence" inserted in them.

JMO.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: NitroX]
      #163071 - 30/06/10 05:42 PM

"I have a number of friends in the Nairobi cemetary who put their faith in magazine rifles. I have relied on a Holland and Holland .500 double barrel fitted with a 24" barrel and weighing 10 pounds 5 ounces. If it had failed even once I would not now be writing these notes" from the late great J.A. Hunter (I think he killed 1400 elephant and has the world record on Rhino under control work.

Must have been a marvel to be in Africa back in those days !
regards
Mike

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404bearslayer
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #163082 - 30/06/10 07:05 PM

I have to agree with J.A. Hunter. In my opinion, the .500 NE double is probably the very best in balancing raw 'whacking power', penetration and shootability. If I had to buy a double again, I would probably choose this caliber and use GSC expanding Flat Nose solids in it for stopping situations.

My .470 can do pretty much the same however, when loaded to sufficient speeds with the right bullet: I've shot 500 grain TB Sledgehammer solids into media at 2100 f/s and GSC 500 grain FN solids at almost 2300 f/s into the same media. The slow Sedgehammers basically just drilled holes, as was to be expected. The fast GSC FN solid however, drilled even further while showing the disruptive qualities of a soft. That is my personal experience. If you furthermore look at field reports of .470 owners who reload (for example on reloadersnest.com), it seems that stopping power in a .470 makes a big step forward from about 2200 f/s on, regardless of bullet. So my best bet for a stopping rifle would be a hot-rodded .470 or a .500 NE. Going higher has more drawbacks then advantages in my opinion, especially in regard to recoil, weight of rifle and penetration.

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Ripp
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: NitroX]
      #163106 - 30/06/10 11:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Ripp,

I would question that conclusion. Not from experience with shooting an elephant with a .577 shooting bullets at 1800 fps, but from a gut feel.

Also the 2300 fps, most, if not all, of the big NE cartridges, shoot at the muzzle slower than this, usually around 2000 fps to 2100 fps, and have always seemed pretty effective to me.

A lot of magazine articles always seem to me to have a lot of "writer's licence" inserted in them.

JMO.



John,
The article I was referring to was written by Boddington--think it is in either Shooting Times or Sports Afield-current edition..also the elephant hunts described in the article were shown on Tracks Across Africa--you could see the bullets hit the head--actually looked like a good hit, but no effect other than the bull turned to leave but was put down with multiple follow up shots..

As to the 2300 fps..when I was last in Zim in '08--had Len (PH) from Chifuti, who had done quite a bit of hunting in Botswana, tell me the bulls there were noticeably larger than in some other areas..told me in his experience, the preferred fps to penetrate from ALL angles was the 2300 fps..Two other PH's sitting in camp agreed with that statement...I should have been more specific...

I have only shot one elephant in my life..can tell you using a Barnes solid at 2440 fps out of a custom bolt in .416 Rem it blew out of her head behind the opposite ear, hit a small tree, come out the other side and kept going..Obviously plenty of penetration...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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93mouse
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Ripp]
      #163109 - 01/07/10 12:23 AM

Have faced a charging buffalo from 13 paces with 9.3x62 along with PH that had .375 H&H - 4 shots in ~3-4 seconds and it was all over.

My first shot was aimed under the chin but hit the lover jaw - sort of uppercut knocked the buff on his front knees, PH's shot hit buff under the spine (didn't broke the spine) but put its hind legs to the ground - my second shot hit it right on the shoulder joint (buff was geting back on his front legs) and knocked it down - it couldn't get back since - my 3rd was a side brainshot that put lights out. I was using FN solids (Northfork and Bridger's) PH was shooting Woodleigh RN solids.

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gwh
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: 93mouse]
      #164701 - 21/07/10 08:48 PM

Never had any real DG charges - one scrub bull who came after taking a couple of shots with a lightish cal (.308) - a single shot between the eyes at around 8m put paid to that pretty quickly.

The most memorable charge I have had was actually a pig (Boar of around 80kg) - came on like a freight train through the long grass, had real intent and was very diificult to hit on the way in given the lack of visibility - cleaned him up with a couple of shots at very close range(about 2m,)

I tend to use the 375 for alot of hunting nowadays - mainly for fun not for stopping specifically although it has proven emphatic on everything shot with it so far (incl one Buff (asiatic) with a single shot to the shoulder with a 300gr pill)

--------------------
Hunt hard, shoot straight

"I speak of Africa and golden joys; the joy of wandering through lonely lands; the joy of hunting the mighty and terrible lords of the wilderness, the cunning, the wary and the grim"

Theodore Roosevelt, Khartoum, 1910

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bigmaxx
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: gwh]
      #164723 - 22/07/10 02:45 AM

I was on an island in the Zambezi near Sapi hunting hippo on land. We boated to the far side and walked in, leopard crawling the last 75 or so yards. We were concealed by some grass about chest high. The old bull had been pushed out of the pod and had several deep scars. As he fed slowly in our direction I prepared to stand and fire. My PH was 25 yards behind and the tracker, Magara Diirapenga (also a PH I found out later) was beside me as we prepared to stand. We stood up with the bull at 15 steps and he immediately dropped his head and cocked his ears and took a couple of quick steps in our direction. I misjudged as he had dropped his head and shot high of the brain. The 500 grain Hornady solid from my .458 lott struck the back of his head and passed through 40 inches of spine. He dropped to the shot and immediately gushed blood from his nostrils. He didnt move or make a sound other than some gurgling as he bled out. I was fortunate to have used enough gun, a comment made by my PH, Gary Fraser after the bull expired. I know under some conditions that smaller caliber rifles are used with success on hippo, but in this instance I think the big bore was a blessing. Magara had a .450 Rigby at the ready, but I was glad it wasn't needed. I was informed of the opportunity to take this problem hippo during a buffalo hunt and almost passed. I am very glad I reconsidered and spent an extra day on the Zambezi. It was the crown jewel of the safari. I was also able to spend time with Roger Whittall and Anne in Sapi where they were vacationing with family on a tigerfishing trip. They were quite happy to be rid of the ill tempered hippo occupying a nice stretch of prime fishing. A trip to remember. I hope to hunt hippo again.

Edited by bigmaxx (22/07/10 03:13 AM)

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andrevannibos
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: bigmaxx]
      #165171 - 29/07/10 04:44 PM

Bottom line
If you use a medium bore, make sure that you are a surgeon with it. If not, you might find yourself praying for something bigger.But, then again, I have seen guys so afraid of their big stoppers that they would be better armed with a base ball bat. And it is not true that you will 'forget' about the recoil in a stressful situation.

We use light loads for training rangers, it improves muscle memory better when you do not fear the rifle. When the tsama hits the mopani tree, they should theoretically have enough muscle memory (read reflex reaction to the charge), training, and guts to face what is coming.
Been there, done that

Groetnis
Andre

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93mouse
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: andrevannibos]
      #165181 - 29/07/10 07:51 PM

Well said - so - would an ultimate defense weapon against wounded DG (from leopard, lion, buff - not sure about elephant tho) be probably something semi-auto with 10 shot mag in .30 cal loaded with something that penetrates deep and straight and feeds reliably?

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Ndumo
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: bonanza]
      #165240 - 30/07/10 05:09 PM

Shoot what you can shoot accurately, even if its a .375.
I have seen plenty of missed brain shots with calibers up to .577 and .600 NE express that failed to drop elephant. I always thought that it is the margin that you miss the brain by that stunns or drops a non brain shot elephant, not the caliber that was used. Saying that, I will take on any charging elephant a .375 that I know well with complete confidance, as on elephant specifically, I think shot placement is the deciding factor. (also on the cats). On buffalo however, where I believe your shot options are more limited in a charge, I would like something bigger in a charge, but am 100% comfortable with a hunter/ client taking the first shot with a .375 class cartridge. On a recent buffalo hunt, a father and son shot these 2 buffalo with 3 shots from my 9,3x64. The 3rd shot was probaply not needed, the father gave it to the departing buffalo, on the left shoulder, we recovered the solid close to the right hip.





--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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ozhunter
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Ndumo]
      #165271 - 31/07/10 02:39 AM

Just on this subject, I have just come out of the bush yesterday where one of the PH's was forced to kill a bull Ele in self defense. They where hunting Zebra when he came out from behind them. The client was asked to put a shot over its head as it came, which only sped it up, then the PH shot it in the head with a 458Win which stumbled it long enough to put a second shot in. As it fell the client also shot and thought the PH was crushed as it was above him!!!
PH over some Vodka told me he should have been dead!
I do like the idea of a 470NE in Ele country!!
Another bugger was that the Eles tusks weighed 60 and 78lbs!!!! What a waist.
Thankfully PH, client, Clients wife and two trackers are OK.

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