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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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hoppdoc
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Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN?
      #60209 - 22/07/06 09:27 PM

I have a friend GM,who will be going Leopard hunting in AFRICA next year and who has taken a leopard before with a 338WM but wants a BIGGER Leopard and better armament.Shooting a blur at warp speed on the ground with a scoped rifle is dicey. He luckily took the animal with a second running shot on the ground but jokes he had to clean up his drawers secondary to his own loss of bladder/bowel control! Can't say I would be any different.

Any suggestions for an improvement in armament if the hunted leopard launches a ground attack? Would a 12x12x8x57J with an off center scopemount be an option? The 8x57J would be used for precision shooting the animal if stationary, the 70 cal bore for closer intimate confrontation.
If so whats best? I would tend to prefer slugs over shot and of course a softnose bullet for the 8x57J.

Is there better armament to hunt such an animal requiring both precision shooting and massive stopping power for the blinding speed of its potential attack?

Thanks to all forum members beforehand for their thoughts and suggestions!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (22/07/06 09:33 PM)

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #60281 - 24/07/06 01:25 PM

Hoppdoc , I see you have drawn 24 views before me, and no-one seems prone to offer an opinion!

It is my condidered opinion, that no shotgun is the best choice for follow-up for a wounded Leopard, and I doubt you will get a second shot on a leopard from a blind, so we are discussing a follow-up. I do agree, however, if one does use the shotgun, the best choice in ammo would be a pair of Brenneke slugs! I, on the other hand, would rather have a good 9.3X74R double with a low powered, illuminated scope, in a quality set of QD rings and bases, and a set trigger on the right barrel, for the first shot from the blind. Then remove the scope for the trip to the tree, or for follow-up, if he gets in the weeds!

It is a matter of record, almost everyone who has been mauled by a wounded leopard, was following him with a shotgun. Admittedly, most of those were useing Buckshot, not slugs, and at the ranges you stand a leopard charge a shotgun has a pattern of less than 3". With the Drilling, if that is what I wanted to use, it would be a double 9.3X74R, or 375H&H flanged, with the shot barrel on the bottom useing a Brenneke slug. The recovery time from a 9.3 round, is much faster than from a 12 ga slug, and the bottom barrel is too slow to get into action, regardless, of what the top pair are chambered for!

Now that the opinion is expressed, let me tell you I have not taken a leopard, with any firearm, but I do know fire arms, and what they are capable of performing! So the opinion, above, can be taken with a grain of salt, but it is cheap, at the price you are paying for it!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Preacher
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Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #60299 - 24/07/06 09:25 PM

Hello hoppdoc:
In my humble opinion, for the kind of a soft thin skin of a leopard, a medium speed caliber with close to 200 grains of a soft point bullet of the 8x57, will do a better job than the fast and powerfull .338 when this donīt touch bones.
Needless to say than the 9,3 will also be a terrific choice. even better, Iīd say,

I am, althou, on the side of those who still trust a 000 pellets for a leopard charge. You can ear many professionals that itīs a better option to use your rifle, and itīs simply true, but they speak for themselves. Only you know how cool can you keep yourself in such a situation, and how accurate your answer will be.

The only worry I would have when shooting 000 on a charge, would be shooting TOO SOON. Then most of the power of the shell will go directly to the bush and no to the one of spots. But believe me, if you do pull the trigger at the right time, you will see a nice carpet in front of you, even if it weights 160 pounds.

Regards
The Preacher

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shakari
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Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: Preacher]
      #60303 - 24/07/06 10:41 PM

The Leopard should be one of the easiest shots on any safari and you don't need a lot of firepower for it. A lot of people get very technical about calibres - but if the bullet gets put in the right place on the first shot the cat won't know the difference between a 30.06 and any other calibre. I'd suggest a 30 of some kind with a fast expanding bullet such as a winchester silvertip. Top the rifle off with a good scope with good light gathering capability and QD mounts. If you have to do a follow up take the scope off and leave it in the blind or in the truck.

Before you go into the blind, check the exact range from blind to bait and zero your rifle to that EXACT range...... your PH should make you do this anyway.

I don't like shotguns for follow ups at all - but that's just a personal opinion. FWIW I did a follow up last year on a Leopard with another PH who works for us. He used a 12 gauge and I used my trusty .500 We got charged at close range and both whacked the cat in the face at 6 yards. The rifle bullet travelled the length of the cat and exited and killed him. The 12 gauge didn't even penetrate the skull - although it did'nt do his dental work any good.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Preacher
.224 member


Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: shakari]
      #60308 - 24/07/06 11:29 PM

In reply to:

The rifle bullet travelled the length of the cat and exited and killed him



But what about when the bullet doesnīt travel through?
For non professionals or for those who shoot just fair, the chances of missing the charginī target are high. Thatīs when the pellets are valuable. Most of the times will not cause instant death, but itīll stop the leopard for sure, that is the main goal of a charge (for the hunter, I mean).
An old habit that I took for myself, is to carry a heavy leather jacket with me to the blind, to wear it just in case.

The Preacher

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shakari
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Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: Preacher]
      #60317 - 25/07/06 04:51 AM

Frankly, it's up to the individual PH to decide if having the client along on any follow up is a benefit or "otherwise" - Personally, If I'm not absolutely certain of the client I'd prefer him to stay in the truck when I'm doing a night follow up on Mr Spots...... and if I have another PH around, I'd rather do it with him than a client. Any more than 2 firearms in that kind of situation (IMO) is a liability.

I find that heavy jackets slow your shooting down and personally prefer a light jacket or no jacket and a shemagh wound round my neck. Also no ammo belts etc around the waist that might give the cat extra purchase. Then I rely on my shooting to stop the cat before it reaches the tracking party. I also like to make sure the trackers have a simi, panga or other long knife...... and nothing else except a good torch.

Shotguns of any kind from my experience are a waste of time.

The bullet doesn't have to travel all the way through the cat - it just has to travel far enough to kill it or at least, put it down.

Many people won't agree with my statements but that's their perogative as it's mine to form my own opinions. I'm an ugly bastard now but I've been hunting DG in Africa for over a quarter of a century and so far, (touch wood) nothing has got close enough to make me any uglier....... and that's the way I want to keep it.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Preacher
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Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: shakari]
      #60321 - 25/07/06 05:44 AM

In reply to:

Shotguns of any kind from my experience are a waste of time.


I think thatīs a bit radical. Professionals of quite high standards have been succesfully using shotguns for wounded leopards for decades. Being more or less adecuated than a rifle does not turn the shotgun into "a waste of time". I personally saved the face twice thanks to that waste of time.

In reply to:

The bullet doesn't have to travel all the way through the cat - it just has to travel far enough to kill it or at least, put it down



I know, I just wanted to say: What about if you miss?
Iīd like to refresh that the topic refered to a non-professional hunterīs use of a certain kind of gun.

Regards
The Preacher

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: Preacher]
      #60323 - 25/07/06 07:23 AM

Hey Bwana,

Then I suggest you carry on using your shotgun - me, I'll stick to my rifle and my opinions.







--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Preacher
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Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #60333 - 25/07/06 11:27 AM

Hoppdoc, if I were in the skin of your friend, I would not hesitate to use a QR scoped 8x57/12-12 drilling on a leopard.
It can be as accurate as any bolt or single shot rifle for doing a perfect one shot kill, the caliber is just about ideal and in case a follow up is needed and your friend still wants to go, he can have up to 3 shots without reloading, wich is undoubtibly better than only 1 of a bolt rifle, plus the one or ones of his guide.
I have seen top qualified phīs missing decisive shots, and this can happen to any one at any time, and a front running leopard is the perfect candidate to be missed.
A bath of 000 pellets thrown at the right distance may not penetrate the skull, but it would be like be stopped by an invisible solid glass.
And one more advice, it is better the keep oneīs skin than to loose the leopardīs. So tracking a wounded one in the night is a rashness job for lunatics only and it is not under the rules of true professionals, whose slogan says: NEC TIMOR, NEC TEMERITAS (translated from latin is: No Fear, No Rashness).


Regards and end of transmission.
The Preacher

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shakari
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Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: Preacher]
      #60339 - 25/07/06 03:58 PM

This is getting interesting...... A few questions:-

What do you consider a bath of shot?

What do you consider the right distance to shoot in these situations?

How much time do you consider is available in a Leopard charge situation?

How quickly can you get those 3 shots you mention off?

Do you really think that when a Leopard charges, you have time to get 3 shots off?

How many 000 shot pellets do you think are in even the longest carridge?

What do you think the shot spread would be at 5, 10 & 15 feet?

How large would the holes be in the shot pattern at those ranges?

What velocity do you think the shot pellets would be moving at the muzzle?

What speed & energy do you think they would retain at the afore- mentioned distances?

Can you please define what you mean by a a top qualified PH and how many of them do you know and who are they and how many of them have you hunted with and where and for what?

What do you mean by invisible solid glass?

I just can't see how a 000 shot shell can provide a bath of shot or an invisible wall of glass.

I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to use in these situations, as I said earlier, I;n just expressing a personal opinion based on personal experience.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (25/07/06 04:39 PM)

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: shakari]
      #60346 - 25/07/06 10:54 PM

First, I must qualify anything I say.

I have no african big cat experience and my only big cat was a cougar loping at me which I shot cleanly with a lever action.One shot-lights out. The professional hunters using dogs in Colorado use handguns/small caliber rifles to good effect.

The african leopard is a totally different beast, a true terror.
Given my own choices I would probably choose a rifle for precision shooting and my usual big game deep woods followup gun- a beretta semiauto with a 5 shot extension shooting benneke slugs.I personally don't feel that buckshot would get the job done reliably with the penetration needed.Apparently Mr. Africa-Boddington( no detraction meant only envy!) states he prefers projectiles other than buckshot for leopard followup.

Lacking the ability to take the Beretta SA to Africa, I may lean to the Drilling with slugs.And no, I don't think there will be time for 3 shots. With the Beretta, maybe 2 shots,More like 1 aimed shot and maybe a "prayer" shot with the drilling if I'm real lucky.

Excellent discussion by all here!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Preacher
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Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #60347 - 25/07/06 11:50 PM

In reply to:

I may lean to the Drilling with slugs



Hoppdoc, if this is your decition, be sure that you can put the slugs (at least one of them) right where you aimed. I havenīt seen many double barrel shotguns making remarkable groups of shots.

Regards and good luck

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DUGABOY1
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Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: Preacher]
      #60404 - 27/07/06 01:44 AM

The only shotgun I would even consider in a Leopard follow-up, would be a double barreled 12 ga, with fully rifled barrels, about 20" long, and fitted with rifle sights, with the barrels regulated to hit both barrels together at 15 yds, useing all brass cases, with fairly hard cast bullets! IOW, a 12 bore double rifle!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #60458 - 28/07/06 04:35 AM

I have done a fair amount of hunting with a drilling here in the states. [12x12x30-06]
I like a drilling a lot, However when following up a leopard I would prefer a double rifle from 9,3x74R up.

I have seen a couple of Leopard tracking hunts where the client used a shotgun. Here I think a drilling with a scope in QD mounts would be good as a couple of times they saw the leopard at a distance where a rifle shot would have been possible.

I am taking my drilling to Africa on my next Safari, mainly for the smaller cats and birds.
I would not hesitate to shoot a Leopard with the 30-06 bbl and if a follow up is necessary I would put a Brenneke a slug in the SGN bbl.

Or better yet bring up the truck and get my 450 No2.

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bulldog563
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Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: NE450No2]
      #60482 - 28/07/06 04:49 PM

Never hunted Leopard but I would choose a rifle every time. I think the reason some people choose to use buck is that they think it will give more lee way when aiming due to the spread when in fact the pellets will still be very close together at the ranges normally needed in a Leopard charge. A single projectile from a rifle would penetrate much better then a group of shot and is also going much faster which is supposed to impart a fair amount of shock on the very shock suceptible cat.

In fact I would be a bit nervous if my PH took a shotgun to follow up the cat.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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Preacher
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Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: bulldog563]
      #60507 - 29/07/06 05:49 AM

A man being judged because he shot a domestic pig instead of a wild boar:
-I am so sorry judge, but I didnīt know how did a wild boar look like.
- No sir, you didnīt know how did a pig look like.

Some people donīt know how do a leopard look like or what a bath of 000 pellets can do. Anyone can take a 12 magnum and see by himself what this tender lady can do at 6 paces. Otherwise I can post some photos.
What could happen to the Remington that advertises in their boxes that its 000 12 magnum shells are recommended for Black Bear, if this where not true? Wouldnīt they be more save against unsatisfied customersī lawyers, not saying such a thing?

Edited by Preacher (29/07/06 02:14 PM)

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luv2safari
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Re: IS THE 12 ga, DRILLING THE BEST LEOPARD GUN? [Re: Preacher]
      #60691 - 02/08/06 08:47 AM

There is a definite shock value of simultanious multiple hits, and it can't be done with a single rifle bullet. This also enters into the argument for big buckshot. Add pulling both shotgun triggers together, and the drilling becomes damned potent. Not all of us shoot as well as Russel Barnett Aitken, or others of his ilk.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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