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Ripp
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Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum
      #315672 - 26/04/18 11:07 PM

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2018/4/20/head-to-head-416-rigby-vs-416-remington-magnum/

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DarylS
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315683 - 27/04/18 01:56 AM

Interesting, I came to the same conclusions many years ago, if simply basing on factory ammo.
The differences in the numbers are interesting. I also suspect the Remington version would also be easier to work up very accurate loads due to the pressures being more "attuned" with modern powders.

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mchughcb
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #315689 - 27/04/18 03:46 AM

416 remington brass is very hard to get. I had to order Norma just to reload and at $4/case its not cheap. Maybe if we cpuld get the cheaper hornady is give it a go but alas after waiting 6 months it was never imported by the wholesaler.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: mchughcb]
      #315703 - 27/04/18 07:42 AM

Quote:

416 remington brass is very hard to get. I had to order Norma just to reload and at $4/case its not cheap. Maybe if we cpuld get the cheaper hornady is give it a go but alas after waiting 6 months it was never imported by the wholesaler.




I stumpled into 500 new cases in a pawn shop a few years back..plus have shot a .416 for years..but yes, agree, not so easy to come by any more..but can also use Rem 8MM as well I believe..

Ripp

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DarylS
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315706 - 27/04/18 08:08 AM

Why not use .375H&H brass? There are only a few of my rifles have brass with the proper head stamp. Even my .222 & .17Rem. has some .223 brass.

I even used .375H&H brass for my 9.5x68. wildcat.

My .375/06IMP brass, has .25/06, .270, .280, .30/06 and .35 Whelen headstamps.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rule303
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #315708 - 27/04/18 08:32 AM

Quote:

Interesting, I came to the same conclusions many years ago, if simply basing on factory ammo.
The differences in the numbers are interesting. I also suspect the Remington version would also be easier to work up very accurate loads due to the pressures being more "attuned" with modern powders.

http://kwk.us/pressures.html




Not quite with the accurate loads. I have a Rigby and all 400 to 410 grain projectiles I have tried throw to the same point at 100 and under the inch. This includes the Woodleigh Hydros which would eat into the powder space in the 416Rem. I have only used two powders, AR2209 and AR2213sc and again both to the same point of impact. The 2209 kicks less and is cleaner so it is what I use. Then again CZ make rifles that just seem to shoot.

I prefer the Rigby, probably because of the history and it just works but If I could only have the Rem 416 I wouldn't be cursing.


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Postman
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Rule303]
      #315716 - 27/04/18 09:50 AM

potaytoe potattow.

I like the Rigby myself. No good reason other than its cool and thats what I have. Lots of case capacity, no belt, and its cool.

All the .416s sling bullets of sufficient sectional density and weight sufficient to give DG a bad day, and will reach out pretty dang far with 350 grain bullets for the smaller stuff.

Action size? Bolt throw length? Just practice. Extra weight? eat your wheaties in the morning - weight reduces recoil.


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Wayne59
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Postman]
      #315721 - 27/04/18 12:00 PM

I generally try to stay away from the word magnum. It usually means more powder, more recoil to do the same job.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Wayne59]
      #315741 - 27/04/18 11:00 PM

Those looking for brass for the Rem..it appears MIDWAY has it available..

https://www.midwayusa.com/416-remington-magnum/br?cid=7403

As does MIDSOUTH SHOOTERS...

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/dept/reloading/rifle-brass/416-remington

along with a whole host of other sites on the Web..

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315744 - 27/04/18 11:07 PM

Agree with the comments..the Rigby certainly has the cool factor... from a more practical note, feel the nod goes to the Rem...

One item no one has mentioned but I did find on several of my hunts to Zim..the 416 Rem. is used by a fair amount of PH's.. most camps I was at, one or more of the PH's had .416 REM ammo laying around somewhere. If you ran low or your ammo just didn't show up as it was being held hostage either in the airport in Paris or on some morons desk in customs...

IMHO, they both have a place..and, in my experience, they are way more effective on buffalo than the 375H&H...very noticeable difference on the effect of the game hit with it .. was actually shocked in the difference.. they both will kill..BUT, I like the initial "shock and awe" factor the buffalo seem to feel when hit by the .416...

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Edited by Ripp (28/04/18 10:57 AM)


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szihn
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315795 - 29/04/18 12:44 AM

Both have about the same ballistics. The Rigby is cool in that it's classic and warms the hearts of those of us that love the old guns.

But as far as any being "better" in the field, I doubt there is a nickels worth of difference. 416 bullet of 400 grains at 2350 to 2450.

Myself, .........my favorite 416 is the Taylor. Same bullet at 2350 to 2380 FPS. BUT---------- It fits on a standard length GEW Mauser. So it carry's nicely in the hand compared to the Magnum Mauser with the drop magazines (like my 404) And it uses nicked down 458 brass which is easy to get, and a lot less expensive.

From the "gunsmiths prospective" the 416 Taylor gives you a real Mauser action and all the reliability that it entails, with the same barrel as the Rigby or Remington, in a slimmer gun that you can get with the Rigby and the controlled feed you do not get with the M700. If a custom rifle has (as an example) a $3000 budget and I am asked to build a 416 Rigby I have to factor in the cost of an action that is suitable for that shell, or do sever modification on a Standard Mauser and add a very expensive drop-mag to it (Like Harry Selby's 416 Rigby was). So before I buy a piece of wood or a barrel blank I am into the action for $750 and sometimes up to $1400. So about 1/2 of the budget is already gone. Add even a plain piece of hard walnut at about $175, and a barrel blank at $150, express sights at $170 front and rear and if you want a band front sight and swivel you can expect to add not $170 for sights but about $265. Then add a pad and grip cap, forend tip and we are ready to start work, But the money left for ALL the work is now only about 1/2 the budget at best for a very plane rifle and if you go top of the line on your parts you will eat up nearly all your budget before the labor even starts.

Now if we start with a GEW Mauser at about $175, instead of a Magnum Mauser at $750 to $1400 you can see it leaves a LOT more of the budget for other parts and for labor as well as better wood, and when the rifle is done it is as slick and reliable as any the world has ever seen, shoots the same bullet at the same speed as the Rigby was so famous for, carries easier and is about a pound lighter. In short the 416 Taylor is the best value in a 416 rifle you can get, buy a wide margin. And it uses dies that cost less, uses less powder, and less expensive brass. that all means more shooting for the dollar and shooting a rifle a LOT is the thing that makes you a better marksman.

I have made a handful of 416 Rigbys and several 416 Remingtons as well as one 416 Weatherby. All of them came out very nicely. All were loved by the customers and I personally played with one of the 416 Rigbys for about a year, but having done them all, I am convinced the Taylor is the best one of the bunch for the real hunter.

Just my 2 cents worth
other will disagree. And that 100% cool. It's what keeps me in business.


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bwanabobftw
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: szihn]
      #315798 - 29/04/18 03:39 AM

I've had several 416 Rigby's and I love that cartridge. Shot quite a bit of African game with it from Buffalo down. But, I also had a 416 Taylor, and I agree with Steve, it may be the best of all. I still have 2 custom Rigby's but I foolishly sold my Taylor. Has anyone mentioned the passing of Harry Selby ?? Without the mention of his Rigby in the "Horn of the Hunter", I doubt we would be talking about the 416 Rigby. Just my 2 cents
Robert


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rigbymauser
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #315818 - 29/04/18 06:29 PM

I have found the mid .40cal is neither fowl or fish. The .416Rigby is a good cartridge but...its not a stopping class caliber here one would need more bulletweight and caliber. It´s not an ideal caliber for plainsgame either. One doesn´t need that much power to bring down animals up to eland size. The .416Rigby has longrange potential because of its case design...but big game are not shot at long range..it´s shot at close range where I see a heavy double is better. For long range plains game shooting a .338win, 270wea etc is better choice. Yes the .416Rigby can max it´s longrange potential with a 300grain spitzer bullet loaded up to .416Wea performance...but the 300Win mag will do the same on any antilope....and with a lighter rifle. The .416Rigby is versatile because bulletweights from 250-450grain is offered. However if I had to shoot 250grain bullets I wouldn`t use the .416Rigby I would use the .338...and if I had to shoot 450grain bullets I would go for bigger caliber because then it would be needed.
If I were today to have a mid .40cal rifle a .404Jeffery would become my choice. It can be made on a stand length Mauser action and build lighter.

Edited by rigbymauser (29/04/18 06:36 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: rigbymauser]
      #315845 - 30/04/18 07:46 AM

Rigbymauser the only draw back to using standard length Mauser actions today are the monometal bullets. They would have to be seated way to deep and you loose a lot of powder space.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: rigbymauser]
      #315860 - 30/04/18 10:55 PM

Quote:

I have found the mid .40cal is neither fowl or fish. The .416Rigby is a good cartridge but...its not a stopping class caliber here one would need more bulletweight and caliber. It´s not an ideal caliber for plainsgame either. One doesn´t need that much power to bring down animals up to eland size. The .416Rigby has longrange potential because of its case design...but big game are not shot at long range..it´s shot at close range where I see a heavy double is better. For long range plains game shooting a .338win, 270wea etc is better choice. Yes the .416Rigby can max it´s longrange potential with a 300grain spitzer bullet loaded up to .416Wea performance...but the 300Win mag will do the same on any antilope....and with a lighter rifle. The .416Rigby is versatile because bulletweights from 250-450grain is offered. However if I had to shoot 250grain bullets I wouldn`t use the .416Rigby I would use the .338...and if I had to shoot 450grain bullets I would go for bigger caliber because then it would be needed.
If I were today to have a mid .40cal rifle a .404Jeffery would become my choice. It can be made on a stand length Mauser action and build lighter.




I find your comments could also be the same for the .375H&H...maybe isn't perfect for anything but will work on anything as well

Personally have used the .416 to stop a pissed off tuskless elephant at 16 yards in 2008..have used it on impala, bushbuck, warthog, kudu, eland, several cape buffalo, lion, and elephant..on the smaller game I was expected a massive damage however was not the case..bullets being used acted like a solid..small hole in and out.. cape buffalo were bowled over like being hit by a truck.. elephant took one shot to the brain, lights out...

As you stated there is very little to no long range shooting in certain parts of Africa which is what I found in Zimbabwe. Longest shot I have ever taken there was 262 yards..shot a bushbuck with my 416 Rem shooting 400 gr Swift A-Frames.. worked just fine..most all other shots I have taken over there have been 100 or less..

As to using a 270W for hunting plains game in Africa..I say good luck, but best have your affairs in order just incase..you maybe hunting plains game, however there are other species out there that fail to recognize that..buff, elephant, etc..that 270 looks really really small when you come face to face with a buff at 30 yards..or a pissed off tuskless cow elephant with a calf...Each to their own, but based on my experiences over there I will never hunt with anything less than a .375H&H period... plains game or not..

Appreciate the points, but personally, will stick with the .416...As Steve stated in his post, others will disagree, and that too is 100% cool.. after all , it keeps Steve in business..

Ripp

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Postman
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315862 - 30/04/18 11:14 PM

Quote:

I have found the mid .40cal is neither fowl or fish. The .416Rigby is a good cartridge but...its not a stopping class caliber here one would need more bulletweight and caliber. It´s not an ideal caliber for plainsgame either. One doesn´t need that much power to bring down animals up to eland size. The .416Rigby has longrange potential because of its case design...but big game are not shot at long range..it´s shot at close range where I see a heavy double is better. For long range plains game shooting a .338win, 270wea etc is better choice. Yes the .416Rigby can max it´s longrange potential with a 300grain spitzer bullet loaded up to .416Wea performance...but the 300Win mag will do the same on any antilope....and with a lighter rifle. The .416Rigby is versatile because bulletweights from 250-450grain is offered. However if I had to shoot 250grain bullets I wouldn`t use the .416Rigby I would use the .338...and if I had to shoot 450grain bullets I would go for bigger caliber because then it would be needed.
If I were today to have a mid .40cal rifle a .404Jeffery would become my choice. It can be made on a stand length Mauser action and build lighter.




The .416 is a compromise caliber and there’s nothing wrong with that. My .338 won’t legally take buffalo, and my .500NE double is range limited for hunting plains game.

If I want a single rifle safari battery, the .416 is ideal when large DG is on the menu. The power and penetration is superb and the range can be really stretched for smaller game simply by changing bullets....... It’s much easier to take two or three types of bullets, i.e. 340 grain PPSP for plains game, and 410 grain softs and solids for the big stuff than it is to lug two or three rifles half way around the world....... I’m a rifle nut with a safe that is leaking rifles of all manner of calibers and actions, but I don’t want to lug them all around with me at the same time.

Sure, there is a good degree of specialization in caliber and rifle choice, but when a broad spectrum of applications is expected on a given outing, then compromise is the magic word........


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rigbymauser
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Postman]
      #315866 - 01/05/18 12:07 AM

If I went on a plains game hunt I wouldn´t use a .40 cal rifle.
If I went on a dangerous game hunt I wouldn't use a .40cal rifle.

I know Harry Selby(and others) used a .416Rigby for everything so I know it`s not a bad caliber.

Edited by rigbymauser (01/05/18 12:11 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: rigbymauser]
      #315870 - 01/05/18 01:05 AM

While ahead of the .375H&H ballistics in thumping game, the .40's are still hunting rifles, just as the .375 is a 'legal' hunting rifle. They are 'all round' hunting rifles for Africa. but big dangerous game and plains game alike. They need to be fed ammo that shoots alike, but covers the requisite duties.
Stoppers?, no - they are hunting rifles and as such, are easier to hit accurately with and thus, with perfect shot placement, they should never have to be used as stoppers.

After all, that is what the PH is for, is it not - in an emergency situation, he sorts out the trouble with the stopping calibre.

Do YOUR stuff, learn your gun and hit correctly - that is all you have to do and a hunting rifle is what is best for that game, not a stopping rifle. imho of course.

Buddy of mine is headed to Africa soon, and will be packing his .375 Ruger or .375H&H, not sure which, along with likely his favourite 8x68S. His wife will likely pack her new favourite, a .270 with TTSX loads.

He is deadly accurate with both & long range is not a negative factor with either- he's the best game shot I have ever seen. She shoots very well too - last elk over 400yards, one shot DRT & she has an excellent coach.

If he uses more than one shot per any animal, it will only be because the PH asks him to shoot again.

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Daryl


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Postman
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: rigbymauser]
      #315880 - 01/05/18 08:11 AM

Quote:

If I went on a plains game hunt I wouldn´t use a .40 cal rifle.
If I went on a dangerous game hunt I wouldn't use a .40cal rifle.

I know Harry Selby(and others) used a .416Rigby for everything so I know it`s not a bad caliber.




And nor should you waver from your convictions!!! My next buffalo hunt will be with a .458 Lott and it will include plains game that I will also apply the Lott for..... I would prefer a .416 for the dual purpose but I want to use my .458 and will only bring one rifle. Buffalo is the primary goal, but I want a kudu and a zebra as well this time around..... I agree with Daryl re: hunting vs PH perspective.... My rifles are chosen from a hunter’s perspective. I believe the .416 is a great stopping rifle, maybe less so than a .500NE, but in either case, shot placement is the key

Edited by Postman (01/05/18 08:13 AM)


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mchughcb
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Postman]
      #315894 - 01/05/18 06:13 PM

I find tbe 416 remington adequate for foxes, even with reduced loads.

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: szihn]
      #315909 - 01/05/18 11:10 PM

Quote:

Both have about the same ballistics. The Rigby is cool in that it's classic and warms the hearts of those of us that love the old guns.

But as far as any being "better" in the field, I doubt there is a nickels worth of difference. 416 bullet of 400 grains at 2350 to 2450.

Myself, .........my favorite 416 is the Taylor. Same bullet at 2350 to 2380 FPS. BUT---------- It fits on a standard length GEW Mauser. So it carry's nicely in the hand compared to the Magnum Mauser with the drop magazines (like my 404) And it uses nicked down 458 brass which is easy to get, and a lot less expensive.


In short the 416 Taylor is the best value in a 416 rifle you can get, buy a wide margin. And it uses dies that cost less, uses less powder, and less expensive brass. that all means more shooting for the dollar and shooting a rifle a LOT is the thing that makes you a better marksman.

Just my 2 cents worth
other will disagree. And that 100% cool. It's what keeps me in business.




Steve'
Curious about the .416 Taylor? Have read about this..seen info on NE numerous times, etc..but have never checked it out thoroughly.. As you are a gunsmith..wondering why you feel its the best of the best ??? Never know, IMHO, can never have too many .416's..

Is it more a matter of price? As the .416 Rem can be purchased on controlled round feed actions as well..I have a new Winchester model 70 in my gun room..still in the box actually...

Just curious is all..
thx
Ripp

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szihn
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315939 - 02/05/18 11:08 AM

Hi Ripp, I got your PM. I just mailed you back.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: szihn]
      #315948 - 02/05/18 05:51 PM

I always thought the .416 Rigby was significantly faster in velocity than the .416 Remington Magnum, by about 200 to 300 fps?

Don't own either of them.

And the .416 Chatfield-Taylor did around 2050 to 2100 fps with a 400 gr projectile. Very similar performance to the .450/400 NE ballistics.

Haven't read the article yet.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315949 - 02/05/18 05:55 PM

Quote:

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2018/4/20/head-to-head-416-rigby-vs-416-remington-magnum/




Quote:

From its release in 1911 until the beginning of WWII, there were less than two hundred .416 Rigbys made, yet it had developed a great reputation among the serious hunters in East Africa.




Interesting the current Rigby's had around 150 "Big Game" model Rigby's most in .416 ordered in the first twelve months of operation. From an expectation of only 50 being sold.

Evidence of how the new Rigby is so successful compared to even the old Rigby of vintage times which created the brand. Continuing the brand with great strength and vigour.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Head-to-head- 416-Rigby-vs-416-Remington-magnum [Re: Ripp]
      #315950 - 02/05/18 06:06 PM

Quote:

One item no one has mentioned but I did find on several of my hunts to Zim..the 416 Rem. is used by a fair amount of PH's.. most camps I was at, one or more of the PH's had .416 REM ammo laying around somewhere. If you ran low or your ammo just didn't show up as it was being held hostage either in the airport in Paris or on some morons desk in customs...




There are some reasons why PHs often use the .416 Renm Mag.

1. They are left handed and the Rem 700 LH in .416 Rem Mag is the best LH rifle they can afford.

2. The Rem 700 is cheapish and PHs and appy PHs don't make a lot of money. So they get a reasonably effective cartridge in a cheap rifle.

Most would have a far better rifle and chambering if they could afford it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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