Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

Pages: 1
308
.275 member


Reged: 26/01/07
Posts: 61
Loc: Wangaratta/Victoria/Australia
Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles
      #76109 - 10/04/07 09:02 PM

When do you not scope a heavy bolt DG rifle? I see that the general advice is that doubles in say .400 on up not be scoped, but with bolts , would you scope a 416Rigby or is this at the scope optional stage ? I would not scope say a 505 Gibbs or a 500 Jeffery even a 458 Lott but others may.

I am goinng to build a 416 Rigby on a magnum mauser action from Granite Mountain Arms ( but lately thinking a 505 Gibbs may be the go) So what calibre would you not scope for close up DG? I am thinking of not scoping a 416 Rigby, any comments, Thanks

308


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AzGuy
.333 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: 308]
      #76128 - 11/04/07 12:21 AM

Some of it depends on what game and distances you are hunting. I would scope a 416 in QD mounts with qaulity iron/open sights. Such a setup gives you the best of both worlds.IMO

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kalunga
.333 member


Reged: 16/06/06
Posts: 328
Loc: Germany
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: 308]
      #76129 - 11/04/07 12:23 AM

I am a big fan of the .416 Rigby and used my Ruger Magnum equipped with a Zeiss 1,25-4x24 (ZM)with EAW pivot mount a lot, even here in Germany where there are no buffalos (too bad!!!). I soon discovered that this caliber is very flat shooting, contrary to popular belief. I sight all my rifles in to be dead on at 100 meters (110 yards), and up to 200 meters there is really no need to aim higher, it`s still hitting the exact spot You aim at. I once shot at a wounded Cape Buffalo at 250 meters and PH Zeff Muketiva could see the bullet fly. He said he was surprised that the bullet didn`t drop but flew straight as a laser beam. The buff went for about 100 meters and died. Back then I used Federal ammo loaded with Woodleigh solids. So for a .416 Rigby I recommend a low power scope on QD mounts combined with a good set of open sights to make full use of the potential of this great cartridge.

Kalunga

Wicked good hunting !!!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: 308]
      #76141 - 11/04/07 01:24 AM

I have been a competetive shooter for over 40 years, using micrometer receiver sights to shoot scores not significantly different from those shot with a powerful scope, so I know what iron sights are capable of. I have been a hunter even longer than that, and almost without exception, my hunting rifles, even the heaviest, are scoped. In fact, the only hunting rifle I own and have used extensively without a scope is my .505, and, were I to take another trip to Africa, I am not sure I wouldn't fit it with a scope.

The advantages of a scope are numerous:
1. Positive identification of your target. This is particularly important under less than ideal light conditions and in heavy brush.

2. Single aiming point: no need to concentrate on alignment of front and rear sights, just aim and shoot. (Even with a receiver sight, a certain degree of sight alignment is needed).

3. Positive aiming: With a scope there is no need to aim "for center of mass." The shooter can pick out the exact spot he needs to hit and concentrate on it at ranges far beyond what he would be able to do with iron sights. A typical fron sight may largely obscure a target at 100 yards, let alone 200, and the difficulties in "holding over" at longer range are multiplied by the fact that the target is obscured.

4. Observation: The shooter can observe his target at the same time he is aiming. No need to switch back and forth between sights and binoculars to make last second observations. There is a big difference in shooting an animal which is oblivious to danger and one which is poised for flight. Knowing that one has all the time in the world to squeeze off a shot or that a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity is about to decamp is a great advantage the scoped rifle gives a shooter which the iron sighted rifle denies him.

The disadvantages of a scope are:

1. Fragility. A scope is more likely to be damaged than (particularly open) iron sights. I have never found this to be a problem, but equipping your rifle with sensible iron sights as a back up makes sense even with rifles of low recoil. It's like taking that umbrella with you, knowing that it probably won't rain because you have it.

2. Field of view. Higher powered scopes not only have a restricted field of view, but may have an exit pupil small enough to cause difficulties in lining up with it. The low powered (1-4X, 1.5-5X)
scope solves both those problems.

3. Difficulty in "catching aim". This is generally a factor of using to powerful a scope with an objective lens which raises the height of the scope mount above the line of aim the rifle was stocked for. A straight tube scope can be mounted as low as iron sights, particularly if a side mount like the Griffin & Howe is used. Amost all of my heavy bolt guns have G&H mounts with Lyman 48 receiver sights as a back up.

4. Heavy recoil can cause an unfortunate collision between ocular and forehead. This problem can be avoided by using a scope with sufficient eye relief. Unfortunately, modern scopes are not up to the standards of the pre-war Noske and post-war Lyman Alaskan scopes, whose eye relief was long enough to allow them to be positioned far enough forward to permit the use of an unaltered Springfield or Mauser bolt handle, but 4" should be enough to prevent such an accident from occurring. My .450 Watts has a Lyman Alaskan in a G&H mount and my .577 a Noske in Weaver mounts. The .500 NE I am having built will feature a Leupold 1.5-5X VariXIII. I have no half moon scar above my aiming eye.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
SGraves155
.224 member


Reged: 07/11/06
Posts: 15
Loc: NW Arkansas
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: xausa]
      #76179 - 11/04/07 08:54 AM

Every Scope/mount on a heavy recoil rifle will eventually break. It may take 10 rounds or 20,000 rounds depending on quality of scope, mounts, degree of recoil, and resistance of shooter. I have had several scopes "break" on a 458win. The one on there now has lasted several years and several hundred shots. I would think that scoping anything more powerful than a 458win would cause headaches in more ways than one. That said, xausa seems to be getting away with it.

--------------------
Steve


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: SGraves155]
      #76180 - 11/04/07 09:59 AM

I saw pictures of a man who got whacked by a .470 with a scope from a bench when it doubled. He was thrown from the bench and knocked out. Ended up with a massive scar on his head which required a zillion stiches. The rifle got all fcuked up when it hit the deck. Now, this man was told that scoping a .470 is a bad idea beforehand. After the episode he tried to sue the gunsmith, but later withdrew. After seeing this, I can safely say you'd be nuts to scope a big bore DR.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
308
.275 member


Reged: 26/01/07
Posts: 61
Loc: Wangaratta/Victoria/Australia
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: bonanza]
      #76185 - 11/04/07 11:55 AM

Thanks for the advice everyone much appreciated, I think I will go with a 416 Rigby set up with good express sights and a QD low power scope but I would think any bigger calibre used as a stopper I would not use a scope.

308


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: 308]
      #76213 - 11/04/07 10:13 PM

Had a scope on my 458 WM removed for a large peep site. With practice I am good to 80+ yards.I just don't trust any scope under heavy recoil. Had too many fail.

Confidence shooting with "Minute of Buffalo" 458 WM accuracy would be a h*lluva lot closer than the longest distance the iron sites are capable of. Thus no scope.

I agree. A scoped 416 is about the max rifle I want scoped.
Bigger bore bolts are usually close range affairs.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: bonanza]
      #76215 - 11/04/07 10:28 PM

My African hunting companion was shooting his Krieghoff O/U .458 with scope from the sitting position, when he decided to try shooting the top barrel first, using the rear trigger. Unfortunately, he forgot that he had already set the front trigger when he made this decision. As a result, when the top barrel went, so did the bottom barrel. The scope hit my friend so hard that it bent the tube. He, however, went on shooting, once he stopped the blood flow.

My attitude toward heavy recoil rifles is that you don't need to punish yourself by practicing with full loads. I have shot hundreds of reduced cast bullet loads through my heavy rifles and consequently am thoroughly familiar with their handling characteristics, trigger pull and other features. I reserve the full loads for actual hunting situations or for sighting in from the bench.

In shooting from the bench, I make use of a home made device, now commercially available, which adds 25-35 pounds to the weight of the rifle, so that shooting it is less punishing than with a .30-'06. A welder friend of mine notched an 8" piece of 3" channel iron in the middle, bent it to 90 degrees and welded it at the notches. I bolted it to a 2'X 4' piece of 3/4" plywood, placed on the bench rest, placed the bench rest stand and rear sandbag, plus a 25 pound sack of lead shot on top of it, and positioned the rifle on the stand, with the butt on the channel iron and the channel iron in my shoulder.

Using it, my 8 3/4 pound .505 becomes the equivalent of a 37 pound rifle, with a concomitant reduction in recoil. Shooting the same rifle at game, I have never been aware of the recoil at all, and never had a headache or bruised shoulder, even on the occasion when I fired four shots in about ten seconds at a running Cape buffalo. Checking the sighting in in the field, I folded up a towel and placed it under my shirt at the shoulder, then rested on the hood of the hunting car. Again, no ill effects.

As a consequence, my scopes have not taken the beating they would have, had I subjected them to the same number of full loads, and none has ever gone bad. (Knock on wood!)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
308
.275 member


Reged: 26/01/07
Posts: 61
Loc: Wangaratta/Victoria/Australia
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: xausa]
      #76576 - 15/04/07 09:40 AM

Thanks for everyone for advice but I have a one of oppurtunity to get a 505 Gibbs so the 416 will have to wait!

308


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
livinus
.224 member


Reged: 12/06/06
Posts: 47
Loc: belgium
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: 308]
      #77912 - 03/05/07 10:21 AM

I never liked red dots ...; always (being somewhat a traditionalist) prefering a good scope well mounted. Never had any problems; top European scopes being foul-proof, are they not? Today my new Kahles ( a steel tube 2.5x) scope did something new: it blew his horizontal post at the second! shot from my 404 mauser.
At the shooting range, it's only a matter of refund, in Africa it's a bitch!
Livinus


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jro45
.300 member


Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: 308]
      #79869 - 04/06/07 02:47 AM

I just put a 1 3/4X5 Burris Safari scope on my CZ 458 Safari Classic Lott. It has 4" clearance. Will sight it in this week with 500 gr bullets.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: jro45]
      #79922 - 04/06/07 01:17 PM

Don't have a heavy to comment on, my "heaviest" being a .375 H&H Mag that has seen 2000 full power rounds or so with no gripes from its 4x Leupold.

Nevertheless, aside from recoil damaging a scope {which I can certainly see occuring} I can't say that iron sights are sturdier than a scope. Here in my neck of the woods I have seen more damaged front sights here than you can shake a stick at and have experienced that trouble myself. Granted, we have a fairly long hunting season and our rifles are exposed to pretty rough terrain, but broken fronts and damaged rears are common.

I have taken spills on the slopes with a variety of scoped rifles over the years with no damage to the scope, but I have broken a couple front sights.

Care is required in handling either scoped or iron-sighted rifles, period.

Having said that, I have had some internal problems with scopes before that were not, as far as I know, directly caused dropping, etc. The problem as I see it with a broken scope is that it isn't necessarily obvious that something is wrong until the trigger is squeezed, whereas if an iron sight is broken the need for immediate attention is obvious.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yochanan
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 912
Loc: Volksdiktatur Schweden
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #79960 - 05/06/07 09:07 AM

No scope on any 450, 470, 500, 505 etc. Just thinking of mounting scope on a double over 9,3/375 is appalling, like roof rack and trailer hitch on a sports car. Yuck!

I would scope a bolt action rifle in 375, 404 or 416 Rigby with a 1,5-5 or something similar and have a back up scope sighted in and fitted with detachable mount.

All rifles from 9,3 and larger must be equipped with good iron sights.

Johan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gustavo
.224 member


Reged: 01/02/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: xausa]
      #80094 - 07/06/07 02:10 PM

I agree 100% with Xausa, and my personal experience with a .458WM dispatching full 500gr loads coupled with a Leupold VariX-III 1.75-6x32 is so far very good, and that is after more than 600 rounds. No POI shift, no nada. I'm satisfied.

While I respect very much iron sights, and have used them for years, and being young, now I need the aid of optics, otherwise my eyesigth suffers and the improved capability at night and the ability to have perfect resolution ( without wearing glasses I is something I cannot live with.

regards, Gus

PS: I also concour that on a double...nasty

--------------------
Best regards, Gus
--------------------------------------------------
ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution
http://www.patagoniaballistics.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AzGuy
.333 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: Yochanan]
      #80100 - 07/06/07 03:12 PM

Quote:

No scope on any 450, 470, 500, 505 etc. Just thinking of mounting scope on a double over 9,3/375 is appalling, like roof rack and trailer hitch on a sports car. Yuck!

Johan




Johan,

You are appalled by a scope on a 470....but think its OK to use a video clip of My Sister as your ID tag.. I'm appalled!!

Upon closer review, maybe she is not my sister

Just kidding and I agree with you!!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
458Win
.333 member


Reged: 15/12/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Alaska
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: AzGuy]
      #80159 - 08/06/07 03:02 PM

My 8 1/2 pound 458 has been wearing a little 2 1/2 Leupold compact now for twenty years and well over a thousand rounds and
hunters cringe every time I drop it on the tundra - which I do many times a day - but I always tell them that the rifle recoils worse than that - which it does. the little leupold is still working great.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Indy
.224 member


Reged: 23/04/04
Posts: 22
Re: Scopes on Heavy DG Rifles [Re: 458Win]
      #80314 - 11/06/07 07:24 AM

I put a Leupold 1.5-5X on my .458 for the same reasons outlined above by Xusa. I intend to use it at 1.5X whenever hunting DG. I mount my scopes with the lowest mounts possible, and they are naturally aligned when I put my cheek on the stock. This scope has relatively long eye relief and I am not afraid of getting bashed with it.

Like Xusa, I am a competitive shooter. The reason for the scope is not more accuracy (I once shot a 0.5MOA group in front of witnesses with iron sights) but the ability to get on the target faster, and also to detect more precisely where to aim.

I also find conventional "open" sights far worse than peep sights. They are much harder to get on target and tend to shoot high or low when lighting conditions change. Peep sights will also do this, but not as much.

Debates about doubles vs. bolt rifles almost never mention the superior--and faster--sighting equipment available for bolt rifles, and which is difficult to mount on most doubles.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 19 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 3967

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved