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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Living with MUZZLEBRAKES
      #55849 - 27/04/06 04:34 AM

I have several friends who shoot muzzlebrakes and working together zeroing their rifles is really a pain. They obviously work because my 2 buddies shoot better, swear by them, and won't shoot without them on their guns!! I have to hunt with these guys but must protect my hearing.

I can't go around all the time with my fingers in my ears at the range.
What electronic ear plug protection is out there and how well does it work?? I understand that they allow normal frequencies thru but block high frequencies.

Has anyone used this type of ear plug in Africa?

Any suggestions??



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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AzGuy
.333 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55851 - 27/04/06 04:41 AM

Find some new friends. Real friends won't shoot muzzlebreaks within hearing distance!

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5269
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55858 - 27/04/06 06:03 AM

Muzzle breaks reduce recoil, but it's not worth it. They are a hazard to the shooter and anyone around. I would not own a gun of any sort with a muzzle break. I once had a M70 .338 Win. Mag. with their whizz-bang muzzle break "BOSS". It made the .338 feel like a .243. Still I didn't like it and got rid of it. I kinda like the rock of my custom FN Mauser .338. Sure didn't like the blast or the added weight of the BOSS on that M70.

I don't know of any hearing protection fully effective under the conditions you describe.

I have a pair of Peltor shooting muffs that have microphones and electronics to allow normal sound through but shut down over a certain level. You might try them. I thought they were great when I got them, then the batteries ran out. I just never replaced the batteries, so I must not have thought that much of them after all.

In fairness, I only shoot on private property. If I had to shoot at a public range I would use these muffs without a doubt.

Hope this helps,
Curl




--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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jro45
.300 member


Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: CptCurl]
      #55861 - 27/04/06 06:33 AM

I use muzzel brake on my 338 RUM & 375 H&H when sighting in but hunting I take them off.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: jro45]
      #55865 - 27/04/06 06:54 AM

I've tried using plugs and muffs at the same time and that isn't enough. The best way to live with muzzlebrakes is to not tolerate them when you are present. If someone wants to use one while hunting alone or while at the range alone, fine. When others are present, it is no longer a personal choice, period.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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MRobinson
.275 member


Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55869 - 27/04/06 08:48 AM

I have found plugs and muffs to be quite effective when using a brake, although I don't know for sure whether they are "sufficient."

I understand, however, that electronic, active noise earmuffs that operate on the principles of waveform superposition and destructive interference are sufficient to protect a shooter against hearing damage when using or around another person who is using a braked rifle.

These muffs use microphones (the better ones use two microphones, one for each earmuff) to detect the noise of the shot, then cycle it through an electronic circuit that produces an effectively instantaneous acoustic signal equal in amplitude to that noise, but 180° out of phase with it. This completely cancels its energy and effect.

These earmuffs also permit normal speech and other sounds to pass through to the ear unimpeded. However, there is no way I could or would hunt while wearing such uncomfortable and bulky headgear.

Muzzle blast is another story. No hearing protection will have any effect whatsoever on the muzzle blast from a braked rifle, which can feel like a physical blow in some calibers and with some brakes. Muzzle blast is what most people wearing hearing protection object to when they experience a shot from a braked rifle, whether they realize it or not.

And both the increased noise and the increased blast from a braked rifle generally affect by-standers far more than they do the shooter. These "third party" effects result from the way a brake redirects the gases escaping from the rifle's muzzle.

As for using brakes in the field, I say absolutely not. If the shooter does not wear hearing protection, and most don't wear any protection while hunting, a braked rifle will seriously damage the shooter's hearing.

And, IMHO, using a braked rifle in the field is very nearly criminally inconsiderate to others around the shooter, such as a PH and trackers. Without hearing protection--and needless to say, they NEVER wear any--even one shot from a braked rifle can result in significant permanent damage to their hearing, much more damage than would result from firing an unbraked rifle.

--------------------
Mike


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55903 - 27/04/06 03:13 PM

You ask a good question! I have been working on brake design for over 15 years and have been using the advice ov an engineer who though now retired used to do super sonic wind tunnel testing in the aircraft industry. I must tell the truth and add the engineer is my father so I am cheating.
Any way most of the stuff out there on brakes is hype!!! Angled holes spirled designes to counter act rotational forces and all that stuff is bunk and sales pitch. Gas above the speed of sound ( and yes the speed of sound goes up with temp.) does not like to turn corners so the holes in a brake are only effective as far as their frontal area. In reality a rifle with a brake is no louder then a rifle with the barrel cut off before the brake. The muzzel brake does not increase noise or blast. However if this brake is ported on all sides as many are then the shock wave is directed or reflected back to the shooter and those around him.
If you look at the brake design I use you will notice that the under side of the brake is not ported and this is done for several reasons. First is the muzzel blast as all of you are talking about. The other reason is that I want to get rid of muzzel jump and leaving the bottom of the brake clean holds the muzzel down to the point where even off the benck you do not have to hold on to the forearm. As to noise this brake is as bad as any if you stand next to a building or your friends step forward and get even with the muzzel but other then that ,like I said earlier it is no worse then a barrel cut off behind the brake. What makes brakes bad is the holes on the bottom!!!! Off hand the blast is reflected from the ground to the shooter and those around and off the bench it is horendous and a real problem.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: MRobinson]
      #55914 - 27/04/06 07:48 PM

Walkers Game Ear makes an in ear plug that amplifies soft sounds and cancels loud sounds. They look pretty cool but I am skepticle as to how much of the blast they could couteract.

Has anyone tried them... They are called Digital ITC;

http://www.walkersgameear.com/itc.asp

Oh yeah, and it costs $960 for the pair so not exactly cheap. Still wouldn't be bad to wear while hunting and if they really work it would be great to have them at the range.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: bulldog563]
      #55922 - 27/04/06 11:30 PM

I read a study from the Medical Society for Ear Docs. Can't remember the name and don't have a copy. the one thing that stuck in my mind was the Decibel level of a braked rifle vs an unbraked rifle.

Along the lines of 160 for a braked and 110 or so for an unbraked. The best ear muffs protect 30 decibels so even with ear muffs a braked rifle was louder than an unbraked mode. Completely blocking the sound from a persons ears still let in over 100 decibels through the nose and mouth, skin etc.

Standing close to a jet engine is only 120 decibels.

I'd say get new friends or get friends that can shoot the rifles they own without needing to have a muzzle brake on it.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: mickey]
      #55925 - 28/04/06 12:01 AM

I agree that the sound intensity at the crown of the muzzle is the same with or without a muzzlebrake--

The problem is the redirection of the sound closer to the person shooting the rifle and its intensity is related to the square of the distance from the max radiating area of the sound source.

Perhaps some decrease in the sound effect of the brake on the shooter can be done by angling the ports to the front.The only true solution is some ported exotic silencing system as noted on a previous thread. Doubt many folks are going to pay for that and register with the ATF as well!!!

Still the hearing damage from shooting standard rifles and handguns will occur and is cumulative and irreversible.This is obviously worse with rifles with short barrels and handguns!!

When its gone its gone!!!

Some type of electronic hearing protection may need to be considered even with unbraked guns!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (28/04/06 12:02 AM)


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55926 - 28/04/06 12:29 AM

I use electronic earmuffs made by Peltor while shooting pretty much anything besides low velocity .22 or long barreled black powder guns.

They work great, I can clearly hear ambient sounds from around me including conversations, birds, the horses' and cows' approaching footsteps -- everything down to the sound of brass landing in the grass behind me out of the 8x60BLE right after firing a pair of shots.

Anything from 17hmr up to the S&W500mag is covered by the electronic hearing protection -- all the while I can choose to turn the volume controls up as to amplify the sounds of my surroundings. With the muffs switched on, from the fifty yard target board I can hear the chatting back at the shooting bench.

I don't own any muzzle braked firearms besides the smith revolver (and soundwise it doesn't make a rat's ass of difference on that thing, they're just plain noisy any way you cut it), but really guys, if you're hanging around close to another shooter who's running anything but low velocity 22rimfire out of a long barrel -- and not wearing hearing protection -- you're asking for damage to your hearing.

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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smicha6551
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Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: tinker]
      #55929 - 28/04/06 02:05 AM

I notice most outfits offering brakes make them removable with protective caps. Having shot beside a new shooter with a 7mm Remington Mag. with a break (and being distacted each time he fired) I can't imagine how anyone would use it in the field without ear protection on. I'm not that desperate to hunt that I'd subject myself to that even for a few rounds.

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: smicha6551]
      #55967 - 28/04/06 11:18 AM

Who else uses electronic muffs or in ear electronic noise cancelling plugs? I have been thinking about getting a set but dont know which ones are best.

The Digital ITC's from Game Ear look good but I don't want to spend a grand on them if they dont work really well.

I will proably just get the electronic muffs.

Any comments?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2392
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: Judson]
      #55980 - 28/04/06 01:46 PM

There was a story that Klineguenther got his hands on some documents from WW II Arms test of various muzzle brake designs and his muzzle brake was based on one of those designs. Those documents supposedly were the source of the promotional statements used in his literature.

That literature says that there are two parts to recoil.

First is enertia from the bullet moving down the barrel. If you want to reduce recoil reduce the weight of the bullet.

The second part of recoil was described as the venturi effect, the same effect that gives a jet engine its thrust. ( I don't believe that's realy a venturi, that's not my field of science, but that's what it was called in Kliengunethers literature.) Anyway it was explained as the burst of gas expelling from the muzzle giving the rifle thrust in the opposite direction. Reduce the amount of gas expelled at the muzzle and recoil is reduced.

The theory of the muzzle brake was to interrupt the straight forward direction of the expelled gases. As the gases pass through the brake there was some forward push from the gases striking the front edge of the holes as the gas expand out the holes. But more importantly the forward gas flow was disrrupted and the amount of gas that was expelled forward out the muzzle was reduced by gass expand out sideways resulting in reduced recoil.

Sound from the shooters position was increased as described because of a change in the direction of the sonic wave. Down range the sound was descreased. In fact if you are down range from a muzzle brake it can be difficult to locate where the shot came from.

I have shot every muzzle brake that was on the market in 1989. They all worked. The Klienguether was based on the "alleged Nazi Document". The clearance or expansion chamber and diamater of the holes and count is what made the "most effective brake " from the document.

I have to admit that of the all the brakes we tested the Klienguenther was the subjectivly the most effective at reducing recoil. The angled hole ones were the least effective than the big holes models. Then came the tiny hole models with Klienguenther being the best at reducing recoil.

The ones with no hole in the bottom seem to work pretty good but they changed point of impact radically from the others. No big deal if you aren't swapping back and forth from one muzzle brake to another like we were doing.

This makes for an interesting story.

Personally I think it would be even more interesting to see if the Nazi documents relay do exist!!

We upscaled a a Klienguenther for 50 BMG chambered rifle and it worked way better than no brake and far better than the clamshell brakes a lot of people make for the big 50.

If you feel you must have a muzzle brake i sugget the one from Brockman. You can switch it off and on.

I alos thing that the only good use for a muzzle brake is ona highpowered varmint rilfe witha high magnification scope so you can see the red mist effect.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: DoubleD]
      #55989 - 28/04/06 04:13 PM

The study you are talking about is indeed intresting but it has its flaws. For one thrust of the gas leaving the muzzel of a rifle when fired has little to do with recoil as thrust is in reality high vers low pressure against the front of cumbustion chamber in this case rifle chamber. As far as report goes a flash supressor will have the same effect as a brake, you ever notice how the muzzel blase from an AR15 with a flash supressor is far worse then a ,for example a 700 Remington varmit rifle in the same caliber? The brake design I am working with on a full auto M16 allows 20 round dumps to stay on target and in the kill zone at 50 yards. With out the brake this is not possiable. Now here we are talking about a military aplication and in this case noise is not much of a consideration staying alive and putting rounds on target is. From a hunting/ target shooting perspective noise is a concern.
If you are using a brake on your rifle then you have one more concern when hunting and this is where is your guide or fellow hunters in relation to the muzzel of your rifle. You want them behind you not out to the side or on the same plane as the muzzel. If you are not willing to take this added perspective into account then do not use a brake on your rifle!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2392
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: Judson]
      #55996 - 28/04/06 07:53 PM

Actually Judson, the effect from the escaping gas is supposed to be mentioned in the mysterious papers. I don't find the idea unbelieveable, after all look at how a balloon flies around the room when the air escapes. Those escaping gases must contribute something to recoil. How much who knows.

The M14 flash supressor is another example of what you are saying. I can't say I ever noticed any recoil reduction from shooting that rifle with it's flash supressor. I do recall being told the web at the bottom of the supressor was wider to diminish dust signature while firing prone.

Getting a knowledgable Rifle stocker to personally fit the rifle stock to you and then practice shooting that rifle a lot starting with light loads and working up to full loads will build up recoil tolerance over time. If that doesn't work find a different caliber.

My personal feeling on using a muzzle brake is if you must have a muzzle brake to be able to shoot a specific rifle then you need to find a different calibar.

Bottom line was that all muzzle brakes work to reduce recoil.


--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Northman
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Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Troms, Norway, 72*North
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: DoubleD]
      #56341 - 04/05/06 02:12 AM

DoubleD: do you know where I can see pictures of the Klienguenther brake?

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2392
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Living with MUZZLEBRAKES [Re: Northman]
      #56358 - 04/05/06 04:40 AM





--------------------
DD, Ret.


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