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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER
      #54620 - 12/04/06 07:08 AM

It has been said by some that no caliber will drop a ambushed Buff to the ground on the first shot --
375H&H-nope, 458WM better, 470 NE-more better!---

But PH Kevin Robertson notes that his 505 Gibbs, 525gr Woodleigh soft has put Big Buff on the ground first shot x 3 buff in his book THE PERFECT SHOT-AFRICA.

It then seems that 500+ cal, ie the 500 Jeffery, 500 AHR, 505 Gibbs, 500 NE, and larger calibers should have what it takes also.

If shootable, are the 500's the minimum way to go?

Is this hype or fact? Is there a better minimum choice??





--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (12/04/06 07:38 AM)


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54623 - 12/04/06 08:02 AM


hopdoc,

I'll answer in relation to Water Buffalo - Bulls and Big cows (ie NOT mid sized teenagers).

Firstly, I think the one shot kill principle is BS.

I have animals described above down in one shot from
375H&H, 500/465, 500Nitro, 505Gibbs - and maybe a few others.

However I have also had animals take multiple shots to be put down.

A whole combination of factors is involved, not just calibre and bullet.

One factor is if the animal is ht in the heart, whether the heart is full
or empty when the bullet strikes - it makes a hell of a difference.

As I have said before, a +.500 calibre does make a difference though
over a sub 500 cal.

Just my HO.

500 Nitro


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MRobinson
.275 member


Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54632 - 12/04/06 01:02 PM

IMO, perhaps short of an RPG, there is no such thing.

Any cartridge that generates enough velocity and that is loaded with a good and hard solid bullet and that therefore has the power and penetrating ability to cause that bullet to reach the brain, or penetrate the spinal column and pierce the spine, will put down and kill a cape buffalo with one shot.

IMO, even a .500, or a .600, or a .700 caliber bullet that does NOT cause central nervous system damage, cannot be depended on to put down and kill a cape buffalo, i.e., collapse him on the spot, and cause him never to rise again, with just one shot.

IMO, short of a CNS hit, a hit through the vitals with any caliber (again, perhaps short of an RPG), will result in the typical mad dash, ranging between 20-100 yards, plus or minus, followed by the final drop and bellow (sometimes the inconsiderate bastards don't even bellow), and then, in due time, death.

Even with a vital and ultimately fatal, but non-CNS hit, I have walked up on a buff who had humped off the usual short distance and collapsed, and who was dead on the ground but didn't quite yet realize it. So, in such a case, because we hurried and managed to get to that buff while he was still breathing, I needed to and did, for the sake of ending his suffering, administer a final and dispositive solid through his spine.

Which is to say, that buff don't just whimper, fall to the ground, and then politely give up the ghost, even when well and truly dead on their feet or when flat on the earth to which they will shortly return, as ashes do to ashes, and dust to dust.

Further to that point, and with EMPHASIS, buff can live for a LONG, LONG time--plenty long enough in any event to kill their killers--on adrenalin ALONE. Shoot one badly (or better, read about others who have) and find out.

After having been initially wounded by a gut shot, or even an ultimately non-fatal shot elsewhere on or through their immense bodies, they can withstand enormous further damage before dying. It would be unbelievable if it weren't true.

When the follow-ups deal destruction and mortal mayhem to their very vital organs, such as their hearts and lungs, to the point that such organs are no more than the shredded and non-functional remnants of their former selves, buff can and do continue to live on and plot and often wreak a wicked vengeance upon their pursuers.

With buff, perhaps as with no other dangerous animal on earth, you MUST make the first shot a death-dealing blow, irrespective of caliber and every-bloody-thing-else besides.

--------------------
Mike


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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: MRobinson]
      #54637 - 12/04/06 01:48 PM

500 NITRO , MRLEXMA--

Kind Sirs,

Of the bovines you have shot through the chest/ heart region with 500+ calibers or less-- how many(what %?) have collapsed on bullet impact?
Is PH Robertsons experience an anomaly?
How rare is this with various calibers with non-CNS/spine hits?

Dogma for Buffs is that they don't go down and this is a rare occurence. Some feel tbat if the heart is hit during systole(contraction) the secondary transmitted impulse to the CNS gives a "knockout " blow.Irregardless it sure would be nice to be able to shoot once and put the Buff down for the count like a whitetail.Sounds like that is not reality.

Thanks much for sharing any of your experiences and information.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54641 - 12/04/06 02:48 PM


hoppdoc

In answer to your first question
"Of the bovines you have shot through the chest/ heart region with 500+ calibers or less-- how many(what %?)
have collapsed on bullet impact?"
A few but not many - but I tend to put another shot in anyway, firstly for insurance, and secondly
as I test bullets so want as many recoveries as possible.

Is PH Robertsons experience an anomaly?
NO - remember he is an experience African hunter - I know people in Australia
who have shot 1000's of Buff and can put them down with one shot.

How rare is this with various calibers with non-CNS/spine hits?
Head / Brain shot - often go straight down, heart - so so.

Too many factors involved to give exact percentages - and you can't factor
in Adrenalin.

500 Nitro


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: 500Nitro]
      #54644 - 12/04/06 03:42 PM

The following refers to heart shots on Cape Buffalo bulls:-

I've never seen a calibre that will put them straight down when the bullet is put in the wrong place, but FWIW I've had at least 5 occasions in recent years when I've shot previously wounded Buff with my .500 Jeffery and it's taken them clean off their feet and they haven't so much as moved a limb thereafter. I can't say for sure if they died immediatly but they certainly didn't move again and by the time I got up to them which I guess usually takes a few minutes they were all as dead as charity.

Two of those occasions, my bullet hit saplings just before hitting the Buff and one other occasion the Buff was running away from me at a slight angle when I shot. The bullet entered just offcentre of the texas heart shot and penetrated the entire length of the animal and stopped at the front of the chest cavity. The animal spun 180 degrees with the impact of the bullet and dropped like a sack of coal.

I've seen 2 similar stopping shots from a PH and good buddy who works for us who uses a .458 3 inch Stewart. One of those, the buff turned a somersault in the air before piling up.

I've never met Kevin Robertson but we have friends who know us both and I know his reputation. I guess I don't agree with everything he writes but nearly so and I'd say his opinions are pretty damn reliable and worth a great deal of serious consideration.

I guess that then brings in the question of what do I consider a good Buff calibre for a client to use.......well, I guess I'd have to say whatever he shoots confidently and competantly..... but a 416 is better than a 375 and so on. IF he can handle the recoil of a .500 or bigger and shoot it well at a variety of distances then I see no reason why he shouldn't use it....... I like to try to get my clients a shot at a maximum of around 40 yards - and closer if possible but there is the odd occasion that longer shots are necessary.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (12/04/06 03:44 PM)


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MRobinson
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Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54646 - 12/04/06 04:25 PM

I have shot three cape buff straight through the heart with a .458 Lott, all with 500 grain soft nose bullets, and all at close range.

That is a small sample, and the Lott is not the biggest of big bores. But none of those buff died instantaneously. All ran the prescribed distance, more or less. One was dead when we walked up. The other two would have died, had we let time pass. But we didn't and I put in finishers.

And let me add that while the Lott is not the biggest and baddest of calibers, neither is it a minor one. Quite the contrary, the Lott is a crusher. And each of my buff, with big flaming holes through their hearts and their heart-enveloping lungs, flinched, humped up and limped, and then still ran like wind the fully prescribed heart-shot distance, more or less.

That direct experience, scant though it is, plus the reams I have read and heard of on this subject, have informed my humble opinion. Which is, again, that there is no way to guarantee that any caliber will drop and kill a buff on the spot without a CNS hit.

Still, I will readily concede that bigger is better, if the shooter can handle all that bigger entails, including, first and foremost, placing his first bullet well.

--------------------
Mike


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: MRobinson]
      #54647 - 12/04/06 04:58 PM

As with all hunting, the key is shot placement......esp on the first shot.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: MRobinson]
      #56206 - 02/05/06 04:24 AM

In reply to:

That direct experience, scant though it is, plus the reams I have read and heard of on this subject, have informed my humble opinion. Which is, again, that there is no way to guarantee that any caliber will drop and kill a buff on the spot without a CNS hit.





I absolutely agree with the above quote!
I don't think anyone who has any experience with big bore rifles, or their use on Buffalo, be they African Cape Buffalo, or Water Buffalo in Austrailia, would deny that short of a brain or spine shot with an adiquate cartridge, Buffalo are not going straight down for the count! As someone above stated the ONE SHOT goal is dreaming where Cape buffalo are concerned, for the most part.
The misconception that a large rifle will pole-ax a Cape Buffalo out flat, is what Taylor terms as a dangerous elusion. In the end, the largest cal in the world, from a shoulder fired rifle, will not compensate for poor shooting! A very large bullet may give you more time to sort things out, but there is no guarintee!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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allenday
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Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: hoppdoc]
      #56216 - 02/05/06 11:57 PM

I'm not preoccupied with the idea of some sort of 'minimal' monster caliber that'll hammer a buffalo into the ground, on the spot. If you hit 'em right, a number of cartridges will do that, and I've dropped 'em stone, dead, on the spot ,with the 458 Win. Mag., 416 Rem. Mag., and even the 300 Win. Mag.

I'm more interested in what's the biggest caliber the individual hunter can shoot well, and that to me is the real bottom-line fine print of the entire concept. Most guys talk a better game than they play. I don't care if a man has the ability to buy a 505 Gibbs, a 500 Jeffery, or whatever; if he can't personally hit with it, he's bought himself a problem -- not a solution.

Close only counts in horsehoes and handgrenades.......

AD


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: allenday]
      #56256 - 03/05/06 06:58 AM

I have shot 3 cape Buffalo.
First a cow at 12 yards with a 480 Woodleigh Soft, from my
NE 450 No2.
Perfect broadside heart shot. She went about 150 yards in thick jess. When we walked up on her she tried to get up, 2 480 Woodleigh solids ended the deal.

Second a buff bull, shot running at @ 30 yards, hit with a 500 gr Swift A Frame also from my 450 No2.
He ran out of sight exactly when I shot, shot hit about mid body ranged up through heart stopped against off side shoulder.
He ran about 50 yards and was down. As he scrabbled around I hit him with 2 480gr woodleigh solids. As I approached he tried to get up and come for us. I hit him with another Solid entering the right neck ranging through the spine into the body. This shot knocked him down on his right side. Another 500 gr Swift A Frame through the front chest into the heart ended the deal.
I have a picture with me holding the heart with the 2 bullet holes in it.

Third buff, a very large bull. Much larger in body and horn that my other buff. One shot from @ 60 yards with my 9,3x74R, 286 gr Woodleigh Soft. He was facing me at last light. If I had not had a scope with an illuminated reticle I doubt I could have made the shot, he was a black buff in thick jess at last light. At the shot he truned and ran. He was down and dead in about 40 yards.

All bullets were recovered. ALL SOFT POINTS EXPANDED PERFECTLY. THE 9,3 GAVE AS MUCH PENETRATION AS THE 450'S.

While I have no doubt the 450 is better as a stopper, the 9,3x74R is a great killer.

I shot an elephant cow and a giraffe with the 9,3.
I also shot a giraffe with my 450 No2. It took 8 shots, all in the right place to knock him down, I shot another giraffe with my 9,3. 2 shots and he was down!!!

I would not hesitate to take my 9,3x74R Chapuis to Africa and hunt all of the Big 5 with it.

PS it is great on Plains Game too.


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Buff To The Ground CRUSHER-??MIN CALIBER [Re: NE450No2]
      #56290 - 03/05/06 01:45 PM

I have only shot 4 buff.

1. 25 yards broadside with a .585 nyati through the lungs and broke a shoulder. Buff ran 25 yards and croaked.

2. 20 yards broadside with a .500 NE. Hit the rear of the lungs. Buff ran a couple of hundred yards but was alive and kicking and soaked up some more shots.

3. 40 yards broadside with a .500 NE. Shot in the heart. The buff reared up on its hind legs and I put a second shot into the chest. Buff died there.

4. Cow buff in the head. Died there.


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