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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Scartozi
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Reged: 14/03/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Columbus Ohio, USA
Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break
      #11500 - 14/03/04 04:11 PM

Okay I've heard a few different opinions concerning this matter. Some PH's say that by adding a muzzle break you can't hear anything for a longer period than without. So you may be in danger of other animals in the area that might not be in your sight. I guess the theory is that since the muzzle break creates a louder concusion your recovery time if far greater than without. They stated that a removable muzzle break would be the way to go.

Again this is just what I heard. I would like to know your opinions and experiences on this matter.

Also I have a Ruger No.1 in 458 lott, would I benifit greatly from a muzzle break, enough to justify the cost? Any good companies to get one installed? Thanks again-Adam


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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Scartozi]
      #11502 - 14/03/04 04:30 PM

Unless you are shooting something so big that simply adding weight and some recoil reducers, don't do it. I know a guy who is a Weatherby nut and went for a plains game hunt and came back deaf as all hell. He loved his 378 and shot everything with it. The muzzle blast had damaged his scyllia where he had a 20% loss in both ears. I know some magazine writers say to use ear plugs when using muzzle braked guns while hunting. The dude tried and couldn't hear the PH who was directing him on where to position himself and when to shoot, so off with the plugs. On your No.1, I suggest adding a recoil reducer or two if possible. The next thing would be to have it Magnaported.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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Scartozi
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Reged: 14/03/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Columbus Ohio, USA
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: 475Guy]
      #11504 - 14/03/04 04:40 PM

Thanks for the info! You happen to know the price range for magna porting? I guess I could check with some local gunsmiths. I did get a better recoil pad, it's not to bad to shoot, but I'm also shooting it with a big winter coat on. I want to make sure it's still bearable with a tshirt.

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
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Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Scartozi]
      #11505 - 14/03/04 04:45 PM

I haven't had to Magnaport anything in so long that I can only guess that it'll be around $150 +/-. If you are going to shoot full loads all the time, you'll need it. Don't forget to look into getting a recoil reducer for it also. Another way to really enjoy your Lott is to download with 45-70 bullets of any weight and look into some cast bullet loads.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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Scartozi
.275 member


Reged: 14/03/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Columbus Ohio, USA
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: 475Guy]
      #11506 - 14/03/04 04:58 PM

Not to get off the subject but have you hunted in Africa?

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
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Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Scartozi]
      #11508 - 14/03/04 05:43 PM

No, not yet. I'm working on setting up something for the next year or so. That's what I got all my big guns for.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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iqbal
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Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: 475Guy]
      #11513 - 14/03/04 07:32 PM

Guy,just curious.Do muzzle brakes or recoil reducers affect accuracy?

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Scartozi]
      #11514 - 14/03/04 07:40 PM

Scartozi,
I've had a few rifles with brakes and they were all bad news in the noise department except for Magna Port.
I did some shooting with a Magna Ported 458 Win and never noticed the muzzel blast.
Maybe that's only because my hearing was already stuffed from years of shooting a (factory fitted) braked 30-06!
This one had a shark gill type brake and would make your ears ring for hours after just one shot.
Cartridges with velocities of around 2300 fps or less seem to be a bit easier on the ears than the higher velocities ones when using a brake.
That 30-06 is one of my favourite rifles so I "fixed" the muzzel brake by boring it out and fitting a sleeve to blank off the gas vents.


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Scartozi
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Reged: 14/03/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Columbus Ohio, USA
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: iqbal]
      #11524 - 15/03/04 01:49 AM

I guess it depends on what kind of recoil reducer you are useing. With a muzzlebreak you will loose some ft/sec but I don't think it will chance the accuracy of the rifle, except for the lost ft/sec.
With recoil reducers in the stock? I really don't see how that would affect the accuracy of the rifle at all.


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Scartozi
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Reged: 14/03/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Columbus Ohio, USA
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: 475Guy]
      #11525 - 15/03/04 01:53 AM

That will be nice to finally experience Africa first hand. Do any DG hunting here in the US? Alaska, montana...ect?

Edited by Scartozi (15/03/04 02:49 AM)


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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Scartozi]
      #11635 - 16/03/04 10:53 AM

muzzle brakes shouldn't effect accuracy... however, they will change the POI.

I'd never fit one to a hunting rifle... the hearing damage is just something that I'm not willing to risk. and there are a lot of BIG cartridges that are perfectly manageable with a decent-weight rifle. was talking with a new friend the other day and he's had several 577 NEs and likes them around 12lbs or so...

simply put, there are many better ways to reduce recoil.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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Robgunbuilder
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Reged: 18/02/04
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Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Scartozi]
      #11683 - 17/03/04 03:23 AM

I've hunted Africa 6 times with Braked and non-braked rifles. The only difference is I probably could not recover fast enough from the first shot from one of these cannon's if it didn't have a brake. Out in the bush, the difference in blast sseems negligible to me. Of course it might effect a tracker ( with normal hearing) standing on the side of the gun. As to accuracy, the only way a brake will effect your accuracy is if it's installed improperly. By the way the correct way to install a muzzel brake involves either removing the barrel first and centering the bore on a lathe, or use of a headstock spider which allows the action to be left inplace. Both methods require that you indicate the bore before you cut the threads for the brake. If your Ruger has a barrel a barrel band front sight, I'd get it magnaported or EDM in a bunch of holes. Accuracy will be totally unaffected by this process if done properly. Most problems traced to the muzzel break are caused by their not being alligned with the bore. You will also not lose any velocity with a muzzel brake. Finally think of a muzzel brake as a gas relief. Cartridges that burn more powder will show the greatest effect on recoil reduction with a brake. Don't expect much recoil reduction from a .223 as compared to a 458 Lott!-Rob

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #11685 - 17/03/04 04:16 AM

I concur with Robgunbuilder on all points! I really do not notice much difference in noise from my 500 with or without the brake (it is the only rifle I have a brake fitted to). Of course bystanders tell me it is quite a bit quieter with the brake off!

The effectiveness of the brake, and it's relative noise level, are directly proportional to the muzzle pressure. The higher the muzzle pressure, the better the brake reduces recoil, and louder the blast! It is that simple. The shorter your barrel and the slower your powder the better the brake will work and the louder the blast.

Scott



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Scartozi
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Reged: 14/03/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Columbus Ohio, USA
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #11693 - 17/03/04 06:48 AM

"Robgunbuilder"

So what is the cost comparison? Muzzle vs ported? By the way thanks for you insight.


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Robgunbuilder
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Reged: 18/02/04
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Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Scartozi]
      #11729 - 17/03/04 02:41 PM

Cost wise, It's a wash IMHO. Magnaporting makes sense to me when you have a barrel with a front barrel band and don't want to make it look stupid by adding an outboard brake. If you have a barrel without a front band, then I'd add a brake. They are incredibly effective recoil reducers in big bore rifles. My .50BMG competition guns all use clamshell brakes and I've shot three sub 5 inch groups so far in registered competition with them in heavy class. You won't see anyone on the line in Reno in April without a muzzel brake of some sort. If they effected accuracy at all you can bet no one would use them. I like big booms anyway!-Rob

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #11808 - 18/03/04 04:21 PM

If you think your are not shooting well enough without a brake and you think the reason is the rifle's recoil, then get a brake. When you are on safari, the two most important things will be your marksmanship and your physical fitness. Spend time in the gym and learn to shoot your rifle offhand quickly extremely well. If a brake helps you accomplish that, then get one.


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Holmes
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Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 159
Loc: Wyoming, USA
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: 500grains]
      #11809 - 18/03/04 04:46 PM

While I agree there are certainly those rifles that require a brake in order to shoot regularly and consistently, I still opt to avoid them. Can't stand the noise or the appearance. Never saw a brake that enhanced the looks of a rifle.

My experiences with Magnaporting have been restricted to handguns. This option certainly reduces muzzle rise ut I don't feel it reduces overall recoil.

I shoot an 11# 500 NE and it is probably as much rifle as I can shoot consistenly and accurately. Kicks like a mule but it's acceptable and fun. I had a #1 in 378 Weatherby mag and simply could not live with the recoil or shoot it well enough to hunt with. Damn thing was simply brutal. The friend whom purchased the rifle had a brake installed and loves the rifle. Some can shoot heavier calibres without brakes as easily as I shoot my 500. Personal tolerances, eh?

For a recreational rifle, mega-bore arms are a hoot. But, brakes are almost a certainty when dealing with such incredible recoil. It really depends upon the application intended for the rifle.

Regards,


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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Holmes]
      #11822 - 18/03/04 06:30 PM

Interesting subject.
I just gave my gun to my gunsmith for a few alterations.
He is changing my cheak piece,putting a recoil "compensator"
in my stock and he is adding on a muzzle break at the sharp end.
If any of you shot a 460wby you would know why i am doing this.Now a weatherby is a bit heavier and better designed for this cal.Mine is a ex 458 Brno.Only the chamber lenghth was changed to take the 460 cartridge.It is a light rifle and with that power kicks like hell.But it handles great and the accuracy is excellent.
These days you get ear plugs wich work on a small battery.Even in your ears they do not block normal sound.So you can wisper to the ph tracker and the other way around.It blocks only super/ultra sonic sounds.so if that shot goes it sounds like shooting an air gun and you can immediatly wisper to anybody and hear them and yourself.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2398
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Bigfive]
      #11832 - 18/03/04 11:32 PM

For a few months while waiting for my current job, I worked for a major muzzle brake company installing them and testing them.

I recall my very first day at work. The Guy who did all the final testing went on vacation and I had to do his job. I walked up to the gun rack and there were probably 20 375 Weatherly’s sitting there all muzzlebraked up and ready to shot. I cringed.

I had to fire 5 rounds through each gun. I was wondering if I would be able to lift my arm and speak coherently enough to dial 911 to summon the paramedics after those 100 rounds. That was my introduction to muzzle brakes. During my 3 or 4 months there I got to shoot all kinds of brakes, on all kinds of large and small caliber rifles... I learned a lot about muzzle brakes and porting rifles. Here are some of my observations.

First and foremost protect your ears

Muzzle brakes work.

Normally muzzle brakes do not affect accuracy. Normally! But verify.

Muzzle brakes don't always affect POI. Sometime it does sometime it doesn't. Bunch of theories and they weren't explored while I was there.

Recoil Reducers and muzzle brakes all work to reduce recoil. Muzzle brakes work the best. Magna port only marginally reduces recoil, it drastically reduces Muzzle flip.

Muzzle brakes with holes pointed forward are less effective than muzzle brakes with holes pointed backward.

Muzzle brakes with holes pointed backwards, towards the shooter seem to blow hot gas and debris back at the shooter. If you insist on shooting these ALWAYS wear secure eye protection. Nomex face mask might no hurt either

Recoil reducers work but not as well as muzzle brakes, but they add weight to rifle. No big deal on the range but 8 miles up the mountain side you are going to know you have a recoil reducer

Big holes, little holes, lots of holes, few holes didn't seem to make a difference.

So that all said you now think that I think that Muzzle brakes are the answer and you all should run out and get muzzle brakes installed...nope.

I only have two Muzzlebraked firearms; a rifle the company gave me when I left them and a 12 gauge shotgun that we used to experiment with shotgun muzzle brakes. I feel no need to equip my other guns with a muzzle brake. Well that's not entirely true.

What do I suggest?

The best thing to do is to condition yourself. Shoot your gun and shoot it a lot. If you can't master it don't shoot it.

If you still insist on shooting your big beater or the game you are hunting requires the big beaters, then consider braking.

I would start with Magnaporting. What, didn't I say Magna porting doesn't work!! Nope I didn't say that, I said Magna port is marginal in reducing recoil and drastically reduces muzzle flip. Reducing muzzle flip may be all you need to do. Reducing flip will cut down on the effect of felt recoil. That may be enough.

If it isn't enough and carrying the rifle for a distance isn't going to be a factor add the recoil reducers. If carrying is a factor install a muzzle brake.

I do have a perfect use for the muzzle brake. YES!!!

You should own at least one heavy varmint rifle with a muzzle brake. Why? Well there is no better way to see the red mist effect of a hit on a prairie dog!


--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (19/03/04 04:29 AM)


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Scartozi
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Reged: 14/03/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Columbus Ohio, USA
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: DoubleD]
      #11865 - 19/03/04 08:28 AM

Those are some good replies! I have a deccelerator pad and a padded shooting jacket that I use with my 458 and I can shoot over 20 rounds and still be able to scratch my head. Of course the sadistic side of me still likes seeing my friends pull the trigger

I think for now I'll hold off on my options and just have some fun, use that money to buy some more ammo! However, this is a subject that I like researching, may come in usefull someday. So keep up with the replies!!



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mikeh416Rigby
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Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Scartozi]
      #11977 - 20/03/04 08:56 AM

I'm not a big fan of muzzle breaks. Most of them work as advertised when it comes to reducing felt recoil. I do believe, that most of them do in fact increase noise and muzzle blast. In addition, you dont want to shoot one prone during the dry season-the muzzle blast will stir up one major dust storm that it looks like you just shot off a black powder rifle.

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thefinegunmaker
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Reged: 21/02/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Southern Wisconsin
Re: Muzzle Break or No Muzzle Break [Re: Scartozi]
      #12304 - 24/03/04 04:00 AM

I'll have to agree with DoubleD here.

When I was in gunsmithing school we tried many different brakes and most of them work very well. Especially on overbore cartridges. The only thing we couldn't do at school was come up with a quiet brake. THERE ARE NONE! I don't care what you have read in advertisements, If they tell you it's quiet because it's got fancy angled holes away from the shooter it's BS. Don't waste your money. The angled holes make them less effective as a brake than the ones that have holes at 90 deg from the bore. The cheap ones work as well as any providing the bullet doesn't hit the brake on the way down range. The larger in diameter the more effective they are.

I've heard rumors about Magna ported barrels coming apart but never seen any myself. If you think about it from an engineering standpoint, you are creating a weak point on one side of the barrel. Again I've never seen this first hand.

DD says everyone needs a heavy varmint gun with a brake, and he's right. Even a light weight varmint blaster with a brake provides the shooter with a great view of terminal ballistics. Just don't forget to wear earplugs and ear muffs. I built a 22-250 improved with a brake and the rifle doesn't move when you pull the trigger. It does however blast most of the paint off the hood on my GMC and seriously sand blast the windshield.

gunmaker
http://users.elknet.net/chico



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