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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
How close is dangerous?
      #347611 - 08/12/20 02:34 AM

We hear a lot about DANGEROUS Game. We call the Big 5 dangerous. We can add a few others to the list BUT how dangerous is a _________ at 100 yards? How dangerous is anything (but a 2 legged beast), if you need a scope to shoot it?

It seems to me if youre outside charging distance, then its hard to call it dangerous. I suppose you could trip on a stump or sit on a thorn and "say" you were in danger BUT a lion at 100 yards through a scoped 375 H&H has more chance of giving you "scope eye" than being mauled.

How close is dangerous? What should we call it when shot from a safe distance?

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Ripp
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #347613 - 08/12/20 03:04 AM

Quote:

We hear a lot about DANGEROUS Game. We call the Big 5 dangerous. We can add a few others to the list BUT how dangerous is a _________ at 100 yards? How dangerous is anything (but a 2 legged beast), if you need a scope to shoot it?

It seems to me if youre outside charging distance, then its hard to call it dangerous. I suppose you could trip on a stump or sit on a thorn and "say" you were in danger BUT a lion at 100 yards through a scoped 375 H&H has more chance of giving you "scope eye" than being mauled.

How close is dangerous? What should we call it when shot from a safe distance?




Guess dangerous will be different for many.. can only relate on some of my personal experiences .. In Zim one morning working our way into a blind for hyena, a tuskless cow elephant with calf charged my PH, (the late Ian Gibbons) and I in the dark.. we hit our flashlights with guns pointed at her and continued to back up as she pressed forward... I was waiting for Ian to shoot first.. she finally stopped what I determined to be 8 yards as I stepped it off after... for me that was close..

Another on the same trip, I shot a tuskless cow elephant at the request of the game dept.. who was harassing a village..that was 16 yards as she come at us.. have that on video tape..

While tracking buffalo one day, we came into a pride of lions who were bedded in the tall grass.. one smaller male and 4 lionesses.. we were face to face with them for about 3 to 4 minutes before they got up and moved off..was less than 20 yards..

Was in the high grass following a Western cape buffalo in Cameroon who I had just shot with my .375.. was a fatal hit, he just didn't know it yet.. I had short stroked the Sako model 75, trying to get it unjammed when the wounded buff came running back out of the tall grass passed me at about 25 yards.. VERY fortunate he didn't come for me.. I was very vulnerable in that one.. my PH was on the other side and had no idea what was happening..I got it cleared and fired another raking shot into him just as he was going back into the grass.. he ran about another 80 yards before falling..

Same Cameroon trip, Ph and I snuck in on a herd of Lord Derby Eland in the trees.. suddenly the bull came charging out ..was about a 100 yards.. PH told me to shoot..I hit him in the lungs..second shot through the shoulder.. looked to see why he took off as the wind was in our favor.. 2 male lions were chasing him.. at this point they were about 60 yards from the PH and I .. I fired in front of them --they turned and ran back into the brush..

Was hanging baits for leopard one day.. I walked around the trees a bit to relieve my bladder ..came face to face with 2 lioness laying in the grass..about 60 yards away.. suddenly my bladder seemed fine.. I immediately back tracked and got back to the rest of my group..

Those are some of my "closer experiences" in Africa

Have several others in N American..but save those for later

Will be interesting to see what others respond with ..

Good thread--thx for posting

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: Ripp]
      #347615 - 08/12/20 04:18 AM

The BC Ministry of the Environment(Game Branch) calls "dangerous" as inside 25 yards when dealing with a grizzly bear,
however, if shot in the ass or sideways through the chest at 25 yards, the "shooting" can not be justified. There must
be evidence of an attack - postmortem.


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: Ripp]
      #347617 - 08/12/20 04:25 AM

Yep it sure sounds like those were "danger close" events. I can appreciate those images. Yes each must choose what he calls dangerous OTOH I think weve all seen or heard about long(er) distance kills and yet still lauded as dangerous game hunt.

What one calls dangerous another may call foolishly close; but modern weapons and optics all but remove the danger when distance beyond the range of the threat are employed. When hunters had only muzzleloaders the threat was well within the limits of the gun. Today many choose long distance hunts, and that may require skills and may even be interesting; but it is far from dangerous, no matter what the game

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: DarylS]
      #347620 - 08/12/20 04:32 AM

Quote:

The BC Ministry of the Environment(Game Branch) calls "dangerous" as inside 25 yards when dealing with a grizzly bear,
however, if shot in the ass or sideways through the chest at 25 yards, the "shooting" can not be justified. There must
be evidence of an attack - postmortem.




I think that sounds reasonable. Twenty five yards is definitely within the range of a pissed off, "face on" Grizzly; but if not attacking the shooter or another, then its just a kill.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #347627 - 08/12/20 07:19 AM

It was the fall of 1971 and I was hunting in Africa for the first time. We were on the lower slopes of Mount Kenya, just outside the boundry of the Aberdares National Park. One of the rhinos in the park had found a way to cross the game ditch which separated the Park from private land and had been amusing himself chasing cattle and cattle herders, until the owner had had enough and asked the Game Department to intervene. When we learned of this situation, we volunteered to take care of it for the Game Department.

Early morning found us at the game ditch looking at the site where the rhino was crossing. One of the herders had come with us to show us the way. He and the two gun bearers and the tracker departed down hill to see if they could locate our quarry. They came back shaking their heads. They had found the rhino, but the cattle herder had spoiled everything (they thought) by yelling and throwing rocks at the rhino.

We followed them back down the slope and after a short walk there suddenly erumpted this huge creature in front of us and took off down the slope. I was walking behind the tracker and one of the gunbearers, and they were direcltly in the way, so I couldn't shoot.

We continued on, hearing the rhino crashing through the brush until eventually we came to a clearing and inexplicably lost the trail. The tracker, PH and gun bearers fanned out looking for the lost footprints, when suddenly the PH snapped his fingers, indicating that he had located them. About that time, from behind us, up the slope, there came a moise like a steam locomotive releasing steam, and when I turned to see what was happening, I saw our rhino charging down the slope toward the sound of the finger snapping.

He was due to pass within about 20 yards of me, but evidently didn't see me, so I released the safety on my rifle and swung on him like I would a Station 4 skeet shot. I fired and he immediattely executed a 180 degree turn and started back up the slope and I shot twice more, emptying my magazine.

I quickly reloaded and managed to get one more shot into him as he disappeared into the undergrowth. We all stood looking at one another tacitly expressing "What next?", when a low moan from the direction our quarry had fled came to our ears and we all relaxed and grinned at one another. We walked up the slope and found our quarry lying in a clearing with his back to us, evidently stone dead, but to be sure, I added two more bullets to the four I had already shot into the carcass.

The PH had fired both barrels of his .470 NE double rifle as the rhino was retreating. One shot grazed the horn and did (thank goodness) little damage. The other one keyholed into the rhino's left buttock. My final shot had hit the right buttock, but had not penetrated very far.

My first shot had hit the rhino in the neck and had exited on the opposite side without hitting anything vital. I was aiming for the shoulder, but the PH said that just before I shot the rhino must have caught a glimpse of me and put on the brakes, causing me to miss what i was aiming at. The other two shots were closely spaced and right in the shoulder. The 570 grain Kynoch solids I was using in my rifle had not exited, but they had done the job.

As you can see from the photo, I was one happy camper.




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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: xausa]
      #347639 - 09/12/20 02:05 AM

Quote:

It was the fall of 1971 and I was hunting in Africa for the first time. We were on the lower slopes of Mount Kenya, just outside the boundry of the Aberdares National Park. One of the rhinos in the park had found a way to cross the game ditch which separated the Park from private land and had been amusing himself chasing cattle and cattle herders, until the owner had had enough and asked the Game Department to intervene. When we learned of this situation, we volunteered to take care of it for the Game Department.

Early morning found us at the game ditch looking at the site where the rhino was crossing. One of the herders had come with us to show us the way. He and the two gun bearers and the tracker departed down hill to see if they could locate our quarry. They came back shaking their heads. They had found the rhino, but the cattle herder had spoiled everything (they thought) by yelling and throwing rocks at the rhino.

We followed them back down the slope and after a short walk there suddenly erumpted this huge creature in front of us and took off down the slope. I was walking behind the tracker and one of the gunbearers, and they were direcltly in the way, so I couldn't shoot.

We continued on, hearing the rhino crashing through the brush until eventually we came to a clearing and inexplicably lost the trail. The tracker, PH and gun bearers fanned out looking for the lost footprints, when suddenly the PH snapped his fingers, indicating that he had located them. About that time, from behind us, up the slope, there came a moise like a steam locomotive releasing steam, and when I turned to see what was happening, I saw our rhino charging down the slope toward the sound of the finger snapping.

He was due to pass within about 20 yards of me, but evidently didn't see me, so I released the safety on my rifle and swung on him like I would a Station 4 skeet shot. I fired and he immediattely executed a 180 degree turn and started back up the slope and I shot twice more, emptying my magazine.

I quickly reloaded and managed to get one more shot into him as he disappeared into the undergrowth. We all stood looking at one another tacitly expressing "What next?", when a low moan from the direction our quarry had fled came to our ears and we all relaxed and grinned at one another. We walked up the slope and found our quarry lying in a clearing with his back to us, evidently stone dead, but to be sure, I added two more bullets to the four I had already shot into the carcass.

The PH had fired both barrels of his .470 NE double rifle as the rhino was retreating. One shot grazed the horn and did (thank goodness) little damage. The other one keyholed into the rhino's left buttock. My final shot had hit the right buttock, but had not penetrated very far.

My first shot had hit the rhino in the neck and had exited on the opposite side without hitting anything vital. I was aiming for the shoulder, but the PH said that just before I shot the rhino must have caught a glimpse of me and put on the brakes, causing me to miss what i was aiming at. The other two shots were closely spaced and right in the shoulder. The 570 grain Kynoch solids I was using in my rifle had not exited, but they had done the job.

As you can see from the photo, I was one happy camper.







Great story and awesome trophy... congrats

How long was that horn??

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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xausa
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: Ripp]
      #347645 - 09/12/20 04:44 AM

[IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ee504/xausa/Rowland_Ward_001_(4).jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds[/IMG]

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: xausa]
      #347647 - 09/12/20 05:00 AM

Quote:

[IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ee504/xausa/Rowland_Ward_001_(4).jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds[/IMG]






I was using my computer mouse, guessing the width of your hand and moving it along the length of the horn..

I should have put down my guess before you posted this because now you won't believe me..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: xausa]
      #347648 - 09/12/20 05:01 AM

That's a beast & hell of a horn(s).
An oldster.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: DarylS]
      #347675 - 09/12/20 02:23 PM

Quote:

That's a beast & hell of a horn(s).
An oldster.



Oh GI, you have 1000 year boner with that much horn......

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #347699 - 09/12/20 10:17 PM

I will write more later.

But when I first saw the question, my thoughts went immediately to one experience.

Hunting cow elephants in the Zambezi Valley, near Lake Kariba.

We were pursuing a herd of elephants, and one cow elephant was waiting behind a tree visible to us to AMBUSH us.

The PH said - "Go around the tree and shoot it!"

So I carefully started to walk slowly to go wide around the tree.

The cow ele had second thoughts and fled.

The PH yelled at me "You just have to ran it there and DO IT!"

What? Fuck him.

I was not going to RUSH IN THERE AND DO IT. I would have been maybe NINE FEET away from the elephant when I went around the tree. Possibly within trunk smashing distance ...

i was going to have to brain shoot it as soon as I saw it brain area and as soon as it saw me ....

I was thankful it ran away ... in this instance.

A few feet BEHIND an unaware ele bull or two in the bush with the wind in the right direction is fine. IN FRONT of an ambushing elephant planning death and destruction is NOT!

My two cow elephants on that trip were shot at maybe 15 yards or somewhat more.

My cape buffalo was shot at maybe 50 yards.

My first water buffalo maybe 15 feet away? In the water, we were knee of mid thigh deep as well. And ambush as it fed towards us in zig zags feeding on under water grasses or reeds.

Most water buffalo or scrub bulls I have shot at have between ten yards to say 50 yards.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: NitroX]
      #347701 - 09/12/20 10:20 PM

There is an infamous arab on the internet who has shot hundreds of cape buff with a .375/404. Viewing his films they are almost all shot at a couple hundred metres away ... or at least a minimum of a hundred metres .... he evidently does not like getting close ....

One might as well shoot just impalas and springboks instead if sniping DG at long ranges ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: NitroX]
      #347710 - 09/12/20 11:14 PM

Quote:

There is an infamous arab on the internet who has shot hundreds of cape buff with a .375/404. Viewing his films they are almost all shot at a couple hundred metres away ... or at least a minimum of a hundred metres .... he evidently does not like getting close ....

One might as well shoot just impalas and springboks instead if sniping DG at long ranges ....




This was my point. Modern weapons allow us to KILL game from 100s of meters away. NOTHING on four legs is dangerous at that distance and these hunters do not deserve to say they hunted dangerous game.

Again, I can see the skills required for long range shots BUT its not DANGEROUS. If the animal cant hurt you from where you take the shot you werent in any danger. I might even go so far as to say they should be ridiculed but what good would that do? So instead I will applaud those who do hunt dangerous game Dangerously!

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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DarylS
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #347721 - 10/12/20 04:56 AM

By the same token, I don't call shooting gophers at any range, as "hunting". You don't hunt gophers, you shoot them. I suspect one could chew on your ankle, though, if close enough to attack. Give a nasty bite I suspect?
That's somewhat dangerous, although they aren't listed as dangerous.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #347734 - 10/12/20 01:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There is an infamous arab on the internet who has shot hundreds of cape buff with a .375/404. Viewing his films they are almost all shot at a couple hundred metres away ... or at least a minimum of a hundred metres .... he evidently does not like getting close ....

One might as well shoot just impalas and springboks instead if sniping DG at long ranges ....




This was my point. Modern weapons allow us to KILL game from 100s of meters away. NOTHING on four legs is dangerous at that distance and these hunters do not deserve to say they hunted dangerous game.

Again, I can see the skills required for long range shots BUT its not DANGEROUS. If the animal cant hurt you from where you take the shot you werent in any danger. I might even go so far as to say they should be ridiculed but what good would that do? So instead I will applaud those who do hunt dangerous game Dangerously!




Agree with that totally.. different strokes for diff folks..

The infamous arab is obviously doing it for the "pat on the back" for being so brave.. obviously suffering from an affliction known as "little man syndrome"...

Others do it for the excitement, sport and thrill of it..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Rule303
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: Ripp]
      #347751 - 10/12/20 04:47 PM

To me "How close is dangerous" depends on the animal. The distance is not set in lineal measurement but in time. If the animal is 3 seconds from you or closer-at their closing speed- then it is close enough to be dangerous.

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: Rule303]
      #347756 - 10/12/20 11:27 PM

....but what is the sport and thrill of shooting an animal purported to be "dangerous" if it is too far away to actually be DANGEROUS. Its like riding on the kiddie rides because you are afraid to ride the mega roller coaster and saying you rode the rides at the amusement park.

When someone hunts DG from well outside the actual threat zone and then sings their self praise for killing a DG, they steal all the valor from those that actually put themselves (by accident or design) in danger. Yep Im back to thinking they should be ridiculed. If a hunter can be shamed world wide simply because he shot a Lion named Cecil then someone who does it from complete safety deserves more. Its like guys who strap themselves to a skydiver and then fall out of a plane saying they are a skydiver. Tandem ISNT skydiving its like riding a roller coaster while letting some guy rub his "junk" against your ass. Real skydiving and real DG hunting doesnt have a professional pulling the trigger for you from a safe zone. Guys used to scream about Mark Sullivan but at least he was close enough to face the threat.

I think it IS about distance but distance measured/determined by how fast/far a particular animal can travel when charging. A charging Lion vs a charging Elephant vs a charging Hippo or Cape Buffalo or Bear etc etc AND how much of a real threat they can be when attacking.

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #347824 - 12/12/20 08:29 PM

Quote:

....but what is the sport and thrill of shooting an animal purported to be "dangerous" if it is too far away to actually be DANGEROUS. Its like riding on the kiddie rides because you are afraid to ride the mega roller coaster and saying you rode the rides at the amusement park.




Kiddie rides comparison. I love it.

Quote:


When someone hunts DG from well outside the actual threat zone and then sings their self praise for killing a DG, they steal all the valor from those that actually put themselves (by accident or design) in danger. Yep Im back to thinking they should be ridiculed. If a hunter can be shamed world wide simply because he shot a Lion named Cecil then someone who does it from complete safety deserves more.




Personally I do it for my own enjoyment. I don't do it for praise. If I ever shoot a maneater, then I expect praise.

Quote:


Its like guys who strap themselves to a skydiver and then fall out of a plane saying they are a skydiver. Tandem ISNT skydiving its like riding a roller coaster while letting some guy rub his "junk" against your ass. Real skydiving and




I agree 100%. Girls and whiny little pansy boys tandem jump and call it skydiving.

There is no way I would want to be strapped like some bondage poof to a man ...

I have jumped only 23 or so time, and each time exited the door all by myself.

Quote:


real DG hunting doesnt have a professional pulling the trigger for you from a safe zone. Guys used to scream about Mark Sullivan but at least he was close enough to face the threat.




Yes and that is true as well.

Dangerous game is ALL about getting close and doing it properly.

Not sniping from a 150 yards.

Not sniping from back of the bakkie.

Not sniping from an elevated hide? Well that one is debatable? The machan was often used in India for tiger hunting. as was the elephant howdah. One reason is tactics, the other it IS SAFER than being on foot on the ground.

Quote:


I think it IS about distance but distance measured/determined by how fast/far a particular animal can travel when charging. A charging Lion vs a charging Elephant vs a charging Hippo or Cape Buffalo or Bear etc etc AND how much of a real threat they can be when attacking.




I do think my example fo eight or nine feet from a cow elephant was a little close to its instant trunk smashing distance ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: How close is dangerous? [Re: NitroX]
      #347825 - 12/12/20 08:36 PM

One reason one gets close to elephant is to make sure of the shot.

And sniping at long distance, if the buffalo is wounded, will the "arab" example sorts actually finish it off? or does the PH does this for them?

I know with wounded leopards often or usually the PH will instruct the client to stay back or sit in the vehicle. I know this would REALLY IRK me. It is MY HUNT, and MY RESPONSIBILITY. The law just tells me to hire a PH, and the PH supplies the outfit and usually a lot of useful information and knowledge.

I know why the PHs tell clients to stay away. It is because of their liability and professional risk if a client is injured or killed.

And yes the client has wounded the animal which is another thing the client IS 100% responsible to try to avoid.

But I am more than willing to do my own finishing off, and capable of doing it as well.

And enjoy getting in there, close and within smelling their breath distance, irrespective of the unease one feels at the time. My run ins with elephant, and with water buffalo angry and trying to kill me, have been the high points of my life.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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