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bwanabloke
.224 member


Reged: 24/03/05
Posts: 27
When the PH shoots ''your '' animal
      #32605 - 03/06/05 02:59 PM

I was talking to a fellow who went to Africa expressly to get a bull elephant ,thats all he was interested in and nothing else ,and had saved for years for it,and for the rifle he wanted to do it with.He could only afford to do it once, and the rifle would have to be sold at the end of the hunt as he couldnt justify keeping it $ wise.Anyway ,when it came down to cases, he was presented with a frontal shot on a bull ,as he fired the elephant turned, resulting in a non effective brain shot,before he could fired his second barrel, the PH ,totalled the animal with his rifle, much to the astonishment and horror of the client .When the photos were taken ,the client asked the ph to pose with him and his rifle ,which the ph declined as he said the clients gun did the kill .The client told me, he didnt feel good about the whole thing ,as it wasnt ""his elephant '' and he couldnt go home and show his friends, family the photos without feeling like a liar about it ,which i know this fellow isnt.So a special moment was ruined ,you could tell he was visably upset about it.Maybe its a good idea to make it CLEAR!!!!! with the PH,before the hunt commences, under what circumstances a PH will intervene.A bit like buying a expensive bottle of champagne on your wedding anniversary and have the waiter drink directly out of the bottle ,tell you its a great champagne, then he pours your glasses and says ''enjoy'' and walks off

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bwanabloke]
      #32606 - 03/06/05 05:26 PM

A similar situation happened to me, but it was my own fault, for taking a shot at an elephant way too far away. I could have prevented it by waiting to get closer or just passing. But I was still ticked off at the PH about it.

Just guessing at a secondhand story, the PH was probably wanting practice or was concerned with the elephant getting away. If the PH was wanting practice, it is a shame but shows the kind of trouble you can get into when hunting with an unknown-to-you PH.

The PH on the other hand might not have known this guy from squat, and has an obligation to not let an elephant get away wounded, or doesn't want to have to follow up a wounded, and dangerous, elephant. If the elephant got away wounded and was lost, the client would be ticked about that too..."Why didn't you shoot?"

I think it is unreasonable to show up on a hunt, never having been to Africa, never having hunted or shot an elephant, never having pulled off a frontal brain shot, never having hunted with that PH, and expect it to turn out like on that "storybook" video he saw one time.

It reminds me of the Outdoor Channel video that circulated a few months ago. The poor guy had no idea what the hell he was doing or where to shoot the elephant on a frontal shot, and though not seen in the video, it seemed obvious that the PH actually killed the bull.

And sometimes, shit just happens.






--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bwanabloke]
      #32607 - 03/06/05 05:53 PM

It is a very good idea, making things clear to the PH. In a nutshell, my advice to a PH is that he fires only in a life or death situation. Other than that, if he shoots, he shares the cost of the trophy.
There is another side to this coin. I have a video, passed on to me by an agent, where the client literally pleads with the PH to back him up on a tuskless cow. The PH declines and tells the client his gun is ,big enough' for the job. The end result is the client shoots the cow in the trunk, from about 20 yards away, and she she walks away, a salvo of several shots are then fired into her rear end in an effort to bring her down.It is a most unpleasant sight.
M

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SafariHunt
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Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 468
Loc: Pretoria RSA
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bwanabloke]
      #32617 - 04/06/05 01:34 AM

Very difficult situation and without being there at the present time it is difficult to speculate expect for givng a theory or two.

Firstly communication withg the PH should have been taken before hand. For example if the only shot that would have been presented was a brainshot which is not an easy shot especially for a novice the PH should state that he will shoot if the ele doesn't drop which is fair I think considering that an elephant can travel fast and could get away.

On the other hand if a broadsiode shot was taken the ele would have obviosly have run for a while and the client could have given one or two more shots but with such a big target to shoot at it is much more easier to hit it than the brain then the PH should back off untill it is found that the ele is wounded or when it charges and gets to close.

BTW I wonder how many of Mark Sullivan clients have really killed their animals and how many as he killed for them

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"

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madaboutcapebuff
.224 member


Reged: 05/05/05
Posts: 4
Loc: australia
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: Mpofu]
      #32638 - 04/06/05 01:07 PM

everything you guys have said is a fair comment, it is simply a matter of communication with the PH. i had a situation where i shot a Buff twice and then it ran ito the jesse. We tracked it for two hours and i was becoming concerned as to losing my trophy and trophy fee down the drain.Even the trackers were ready to give up, or so it seemed. My PH decided to split us into two groups to try and cover more ground. at this point i had just about resigned to the fact that i had blown it. 10 minutes later i hear the PH's rifle boom 500 yards away and i felt the greatest relief ever. i ran over until i found my PH and buff.My PH told me the animal was dead on its feet so after this 2 hour plus ordeal the best option from my PH's view was to end it. Even though he new my view on shooting my animal was a no-no, sanity prevailed and i am very grateful.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: madaboutcapebuff]
      #32772 - 08/06/05 10:35 AM

Its not that complicated, if the animal is about to stomp your a$$, it's nice to have help, and if he is getting away and your trophy fees has wings, its nice to have a bit of help, if he makes a mistake, thats Ok too...if he makes a habit of it, then you hunted with the wrong folks..

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: madaboutcapebuff]
      #32786 - 08/06/05 03:31 PM

I also had a wounded buff once that was hiding and the PH was way to hell and gone, looking on his own. The trackers and I, along with an apprentice PH, were on the track. Or at least I had more confidence in the trackers finding the buff than the PH.

As in 99.9% of the cases of a wounded buff, it didn't charge when we finally found it hiding behind a tiny little tree (amazing how small a buff can make itself), and got itself mowed down with my .470 while it was running off.

I felt it was a little strange to leave this city boy "alone" in this situation, but sometimes you have to accept the danger part of dangerous game hunting.



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: atkinson6]
      #32789 - 08/06/05 03:41 PM

Ray,

I also think DG hunting is a hell of a lot more dangerous when hunting by oneself. Things can go to hell in a hurry. It is comforting to have backup even if never needed.



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: Will]
      #32794 - 08/06/05 06:53 PM


I think it is up to you to make sure the PH knows what is expected of him and when
and it should all be discussed before you go out. He may have his rules when
hunting DG, especially elephant.

When I went after a large Buffalo here in the middle of a swamp,
the PH knew he could fire if it was going to get away after my couple of shots.

The only question the PH asked me was what did I want to do if the buffalo
charged - unprovoked - which was a likely reaction as we were going to and
did get very close (30 yards).

I said to the PH to start shooting and I'll step to one side and start shooting as well
and hopefully he'll stop before he flattens us !!! The PH smiled.

Luckily we had hunted with each other before but we both knew exactly what
each of us was to do in any situation.

500 Nitro

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bwanabloke]
      #32889 - 11/06/05 01:19 AM

If the PH did not discuss when he should/would shoot before the hunt commenced, that indicates a lack of professionalism on the part of the PH. It also sounds as if he may have been a bit quick on the trigger, but I was not there. Personally I would avoid this situation by discussing it with the PH in advance.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: 500grains]
      #32894 - 11/06/05 02:23 AM


500grains

f the PH did not discuss when he should/would shoot before the hunt commenced,
that indicates a lack of professionalism on the part of the PH.

I totally agree - after all, they may have a first time client - who doen't know what questions to
ask so it is up the PH.

500 Nitro

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32901 - 11/06/05 05:56 AM

coulda, woulda, shoulda.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39261
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: Will]
      #32915 - 11/06/05 01:45 PM

When hunting my water buffalo last year, Matt Graham mentioned we would need to hit it hard so it didn't get into the open water. We also waited until it was facing land before shooting so if it ran it ran the right direction for the first few steps.

I also told him I wanted him to shoot it as well as soon as it looked like running into the open floodplains. It was far enough out and the water did get deeper furtherer out. Plus who knows if there were crocs out there.

He actually said "no I'll wait", but I said, "no, blast it". As it turned out it dropped like a brain shot doe when hit by the .450, but a little while later did try to get up again.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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bjlooper
.224 member


Reged: 27/03/05
Posts: 11
Loc: Mississippi, USA
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bwanabloke]
      #32962 - 12/06/05 07:21 PM

bwanabloke
Sounds like a really sad situation, I feal for your friend that had his hunting dream crushed by some PH. I can't belive that some PHs have so little respect for their clients. I've run across a few guides like this if it is made known to me up front I would cancle the trip and reschedule with a PH that has the proper respect for the person whos MONEY is supporting him. It happens far to often that people who work in the hunting and fishing industry are critical and condecending of the hand that feeds them.

I would rather loose the trophy fee, go home empty handed, rescheduale my trip, or get tossed before a guide fires his rifle. If he did I woud not take the trophy home, unless I could sell it. Then I would do my best to get a refund.

Before every one jumps on me I'm not talking about the professional hard working guides that enjoy what they do and treat their clients with respect. They provided a great service that makes hunting in new places possible. To them I give a hardy thanks.

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bjlooper]
      #32967 - 13/06/05 02:05 AM

bwanabloke,

I suggest that your friend file a detailed write up of the situation with www.huntingreport.com so that others can know which PH/outfitter is responsible for your friend's negative experience.

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bjlooper]
      #32976 - 13/06/05 07:36 AM

It is all speculation. We weren't there and who knows what really happened. You can badmouth some guy for what reportedly happened, but what really did happen?

Some guy on AR crucified a Zim PH relentlessly and ceaselessly for months. Since I know the PH and have hunted with him, the "guy" on AR I can only conclude is full of shit.

I still am of the opinion that if you show up without any experience whatsoever, what do you expect? Some guys would piss and moan if the ivory was only 99 lbs. instead of a hundred.

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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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bwanabloke
.224 member


Reged: 24/03/05
Posts: 27
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: Will]
      #32977 - 13/06/05 08:38 AM

Anyone going on their first safari to Africa is going to show up with with no ''experience ''of it, what a stupid statement

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: Will]
      #32980 - 13/06/05 09:55 AM

In reply to:

Originally posted by Will:

It is all speculation. We weren't there and who knows what really happened. You can badmouth some guy for what reportedly happened, but what really did happen?



Yes, which is why I suggested that the client who went on the hunt submit a hunt report. None of the rest of us is in posession of sufficient facts to write up a hunt report. If the hunt went well, the client can say so. If not, the client can say that as well.

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bjlooper
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Reged: 27/03/05
Posts: 11
Loc: Mississippi, USA
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bwanabloke]
      #32983 - 13/06/05 10:14 AM

"he was presented with a frontal shot on a bull ,as he fired the elephant turned, resulting in a non effective brain shot,before he could fired his second barrel, the PH ,totalled the animal with his rifle, much to the astonishment and horror of the client."

Will
I thought Retired Professor could read. It's obvious that the ele was not about to crush the client, so the PH should not have fired his rifle period. It's the clients trophy fee and if he didn't ask for help that settles it, the PH should have held his fire.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bjlooper]
      #32992 - 13/06/05 03:18 PM

There is a video floating around a while ago where a very reputable PH shoots every single buffalo immediately after the client does. Every single time. It could have been some understanding between the PH and client as it was never mentioned.Maybe they wanted to avoid un-necessary tracking in the thick Zambezi bush or something? They id take quite a few and with the video perhaps wanted more action instead of searching.

But I would not be happy for a PH doing this on my safari unless it was necessary - ie a charge getting too close or the animal being obviously poorly shot and getting away.

Communication is the key before booking and before hunting to a lot of later issues.

I do remember discussions on shooting elephants - I have never shot one - where a lot of people admitted the PH will shoot immediately after a brain shot being missed - ie if the ele doesn't drop, and will also shoot no matter what if a heart shot is taken.

This story does fit those circumstances.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: NitroX]
      #32999 - 13/06/05 04:40 PM

In reply to:

Communication is the key before booking and before hunting to a lot of later issues.




This is very true.
Problems can still arise however (when the PH shoots) where the client truely believes that the PH should not have fired a shot but the PH also truely believes that it was necessary for him to shoot.

All this can happen in a very short amount of time and when the pressure is really intense.
Bin there............

The deal is however, if you have a competant PH, and you, the client, do your part right, there shouldn't be any problems.

The LAST thing that a good PH wants, is to piss his client/s off.

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cchunter
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 744
Loc: Kinna, Sweden
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: 4seventy]
      #33006 - 13/06/05 05:42 PM

If shooting with a double and second shot doesn't take to long I would say it would be ok for the PH to shoot the third shot if he feels it is needed.

As earlier said off course a first timer will have no experience but in my opinion a first timer Africa maybee should start with something else then an Elephant.

What has to be considered also, but maybee not so ok is that some Elephant hunts will be made with unexperienced PHs. Also the chance would be bigger if you pick the cheapest (not cheap though) outfitter?

--------------------


Christer Hansson

Edited by cchunter (13/06/05 07:05 PM)

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: cchunter]
      #33007 - 13/06/05 05:53 PM

Perhaps another thread should be started with a title something like.........

When the client muffs the shot on "his" animal

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: 4seventy]
      #33010 - 13/06/05 10:10 PM

At least this topic is generating a lot of discussion. It is just beating a dead horse because we don't know all the sorted details. So to whack that horse one more time:

I hope the PH was mostly concerned with the safety of his client and not letting a wounded elephant get away. A muffed brain shot elephant can go a long, long way. And hunting concession sizes are not infinite and I can see an ele getting away wounded.

There are reasons to brain shoot an elephant and reasons to take a heart/lung shot, but as I have always said, pulling off a successful brain shot automatically eliminates the PH from the equation. But many times a near miss will drop an elephant anyway, which might have allowed the client to finish it off. Who bloody hell knows???

If nothing else, chaulk it up to a learning experience and know better the next time (hint, hint).

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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jgttechjunkie
.275 member


Reged: 20/02/04
Posts: 59
Re: When the PH shoots ''your '' animal [Re: bwanabloke]
      #35254 - 31/07/05 10:14 AM

Someplace I read that a PH had a ghost sight or maybe a low power scope with which he would aim as a client took a
brain shot. If he still saw gray after he heard the shot he wrote that he would shoot. Every PH forms an initial opinion of the skills and expereince of the client and if they are any good they can adjust their behavior accordingly. Was it a brand new large caliber double rifle recently acquired for a first time elephant hunt by an unknown client? Already the PH is suspicious. The client either had bad luck or poor execution, in any case the PH's priority is first to bring him back alive from the experience and second to make sure a wounded animal does not escape.

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