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blackbearhunter
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Ivory-Elephants and Bell
      #18871 - 03/09/04 09:26 PM

When Bell was shooting all his elephants was there a record book(roland ward?)that kept up with tusk size?What was his largest?I think I read years ago somewhere that a bull was shot close to or on killamanjaro that was so big that it was thought to have mastadon blood and was the last of its kind,sorta like the yeti.Also did bell test big bore doubles for holland & holland or rigbyor other maker at one time,in a basement type range under ground,and he stated that everytime he pulled the trigger it was like being in a auto accident with the sound and concussion & recoil?Ialways thought that was a goodone.He said that was why he shot the 7x57 mauser on elephants,he had enough of the big bore rifles when he was a tester for the maker in that little basement room?Why did he shoot the 7x57 on elephant?Are they that easy to kill?I would at least use a 30-06.Did the germans or british have a bullet justa little bigger than the 7x57?Also have a lot of elephant and lion and cape buff been taken cleanly with the 303 and 8x57 and 30-06?Is the brain/head shot the only one really with such small caliber or did the old timers use the lung shot as well?I know game was a lot more plentiful back then.How much ivory did bell take a year to make a fortune?How much ivory total in his hunting career?
Was W.D. Bell the greatest elephant Hunter?Who would be next to him on that list?Did Bell ever get wounded or almost killed by a big old bull or lion ,etc.you guess or did he just waltz right thru all that african bush without a scratch?
Anyone who does a lot of bush walking I would think would have a brush with death by a momba/cobra at the very least!!!
What ever became of his rifle and did he shoot a rigby?Was the 7x57 his only gun?Bell and his adventures always seem interesting and Brave....Any books on W.D.Bells life?

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Marrakai
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18881 - 03/09/04 11:35 PM

Bloody hell, BBH, you sure are keen!!

The last questions first: there are several books on Bell's exploits, some autobiographical.
Karamojo Safari
Bell of Africa
Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.
Many of your questions will find answers within their pages.

Bell's 6.5 Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle is owned by a member of the Mannlicher Collector's Society in the USA. It has Bell's 3-digit Nairobi phone number engraved under the hinged lid of the butt cavity. I don't know whether his .275 (7x57) survives.

The small-bores were successful on elephant only with the brain-shot and long-for-calibre bluff-nosed solids. Bell once boasted that the bore of his .275 "had never once been polluted by the passage of a soft-nose bullet"! You will appreciate that some consistently cool shooting was required to safely brain-shoot ele with a .275 over a long career as a professional ivory hunter!

BTW, Bell also had a nitro double, either .400 or .450, but appears to have used it very little and written about it even less.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell *DELETED* [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18882 - 03/09/04 11:35 PM

Post deleted by NitroX

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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blackbearhunter
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Marrakai]
      #18885 - 04/09/04 12:52 AM

Wouldnt you like to find that 275. at a trade show somewhere!Didnt corbett shoot man eating Tigers with a 275 H&H ?Would that cartridge be flying like a 280rem. or 270,7mag.lite?

Didnt Holland & Holland have a 322.double rifle back then?That would have been my choice. For a small bore.
I would love to have hunted with Bell and Corbet!!!!
Maybe in the other....

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Marrakai]
      #18886 - 04/09/04 01:01 AM

(Note I "pruned" a couple identical posts by Marrakai)

Bell recommended in one of his books a .318 Bolt and a .450 Double as the ideal two rifle battery for Africa. He describes in one safari how his mate used these two calibres while he elected to use his .318 for his elephant hunting.

I remember reading he choose to use a .275 Rigby as his elephant rifle because
* he was hunting in very high grass in the Karamojo region;
* he had to take a lot of shots sitting on the shoulders of a black or a tripod - larger calibres knocked him off;
* the elephants were unused to gunfire and the quieter report did not disturb them as much;
* he could get solid ammo for the .275.

Marrakai

My guess he used a .450 as this was the calibre he recommended.


--------------------
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Gibbs505
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18898 - 04/09/04 05:09 AM

Corbett used several different guns from a 275 rigby, which he shot athe maneatening leopard of rudapryang with, to a 500! When younger, he used a 450-577 Martini-Henry quite a bit.

His collection of stories is on sale at Safri press right now I belive!

--------------------
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Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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blackbearhunter
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: NitroX]
      #18901 - 04/09/04 05:12 AM

What do you think his range was(Max) with the 257?I would guess with in 100yrds.?Was his bulls eye a line(aim for center) between the eye and the base of the ear on a broadside shot?
On bufflo & ele is the bullseye in the middle of a X that is drawn between the ears and eyes if the nose is down?If it is up do you aim for the nostril or pick a eye i.e .slightly lower aim?
Is there such a thing as a neck shot at the base of the head on buff from the back side?Is the center of x always a standard frontal shot for the brain on most africian dangerous game?Do you think bell shot alot of game through the heart also and the trackers just tracked it down sort of like the old west bufflo hunters use to do and staked camp right there?Did they just live in the forest for months travelling like a indian tribe with many hands to help,Carrying all the Ivory& necessities they needed like a travelling Gypse ivory show and when everyone had a tusk to carry they were at there limit and went to town ?Game was so plentyful,I guess they thought there would be no end.I would have toguess at how much the expiditions of the day must have cost ,even at the econonmy of the time,and to travel from england and back home for many british adventures must have been something of itself with out jet planes and fast cars.
Is killamanjaro still a great wild place to hunt?
Who besides Bell is known as a great elephant hunter & tracker,Wally Johnson ?Who else is as famous for risking there life so much with such a Dangerous,intelligent,Animal?Nobody.Bell is the greatest ele hunter,corbett the greatest tiger hunter.Period.
The elephant always seem to me to be the most dangerous Big 5 to hunt and lose your life doing it.Nothing (Can)messes with or makes them scared if they are Mad as Hell and want to Dance.Whatcha gonna do?climb a tree? Are elephant really in a class by them self for Danger?Especially up close and in your face? What could compare besides Rhino?Hunters that have been there and done that what would you say was the number one most Dangerous Big 5 King of The Beast?I havent done it and been there, but i would vote elephant for King of beast if it came to a fist /claw/tusk/horn fight with Anything else.Long Live the ELEPHANT! The Elephant is the King of beast...........

I wonder what Bell would think of the fast track pace of hunts today compared to his day of safari expeditions and months in the bush....Wish I was There......

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Marrakai
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18906 - 04/09/04 08:48 AM

Maaate! You gotta get the books and have a read! "Karamojo Safari" would probably be the best place to start since it describes the technicalities of setting up and conducting an extended ivory-hunting safari.

Bell actually dissected an elephant skull and made quite detailed drawings of the proper angle for the brain-shot. In his book "Wanderings..." he devotes whole chapters to the brain-shot and the body-shot on ele. Pondoro Taylor also shows the position of the brain in a front-on photograph of a dissected ele head in his book 'African Rifles and Cartridges'. Must have been an enormous job chopping the entire front off an elephant's head with hand-axes, but I guess their lives depended on knowing where to place that tiny bullet. (Besides, the 'boys' would have done all the chopping!)

NitroX:
You were going off-line (or something!) as I tossed up my post last night, so I had a couple of stabs at getting it to stick before surfing off into the distance.... Feel free to delete any accidental duplicate posts in the future.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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mickey
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Marrakai]
      #18907 - 04/09/04 09:21 AM

bbh

Bell was probably not the greatest Elephant Hunter. There were many, many men who shot more Elephants and spent a greater amount of time in the bush. Jim Sutherland comes to mind.

There is a very good book by Dennis Lyle about all of the old timers. I forget the title but someone here will have it I am sure.

Just one more note. Being a Great Elephant Hunting Writer does not mean you are the Greatest Elephant Hunter. If that were true PHC would have shot everything in Africa.

One more thing. Slow down a bit. Us olden guys can't keep up with your thought train.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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blackbearhunter
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: mickey]
      #18909 - 04/09/04 10:49 AM

Thanks for the book titles,Iam going todo some reading up this winter and will for sure check out that book.I also want to get the horn of the hunter by ruark and use enough gun,Ijust get wound up like a banjo string just talking about going after a big bad bull ele with a 7x57?
Kinda makes the 375H&H look like plenty of gun all day long for anything and I guess she is with a perfect brain shot.Those old timers sure were a tough bunch and my hats off to all of em!Salute
Ialways thought I was a little bit wild & crazy but Damn,they got me beat by a country mile! Great Fun! viva africa!

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Will
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18914 - 04/09/04 12:47 PM

Actually it is Denis Lyell, The African Elephant and its Hunters.

Also, Foran, Elephant Hunters of the Lado.

You need to read up. Bell used a 7x57 but had to finish off a lot of them. Bell also contradicts himself a lot.

A lot of the stuff written and posted about elephant hunting today is "talking shit."

The greatest: probably Jimmy Sutherland.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18915 - 04/09/04 01:16 PM

I think the elephant would have been shot more like 30 yards.

You must buy "Bell of Africa" and/or "Karamojo Safari". They were the first African hunting books I read and are very good reads.

I always remember how he described dealing with hostile natives. If he camped outside their villages he would be attacked and killed so he marched straight into the middle of their villages and then managed to get the 'laws of hospitality' involved so they could not kill him till he left. In the meantime they got lots of meat so they became friendly.

Another story was how warriors came to him and started collecting around him. They appeared to not have good intentions. By chance he had a Mauser automatic pistol and several zebra came by. When he shot several of them raid fire they warriors were very impressed and left him alone.

Amazing stuff from another age.

I get the feeling Bell was bit of an ornery character and probably not an enjoyable fellow to hunt with. JMO.

The rifle is a .275 (not .257) which is an English name for the 7x57mm. Bell used long round nose heavy solids for penetration on elephant skulls.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Gibbs505
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18924 - 04/09/04 02:57 PM

blackbearhunter, if you want to read about Jim Corbett, then here is a link for you

http://www.safaripress.com/0-940143-54-2.html

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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blackbearhunter
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Gibbs505]
      #18929 - 04/09/04 09:46 PM

Thanks alot mates.I look forward to reading them all.That Corbett collection looks like a very Nice One!Corbett always struck me as a smart,soft spoken gentleman with a hugh heart.A gentleman and friend of the highest.
What about selous?He always seem like one of the greats also.What was the Game animal he is most remembered for hunting?He was one of the tough old birds also.Didnt he get killed fighting in the war and he was like 80yr.old something?His park in africa is one of the best also isnt it?Would love to go there someday and just ride around in a jeep and see the land and do a little hunting and maybe take a Kudo and bushbuck/water buck and bush Pig and Cape Buff.That would be a grand time for sure.........
Are there any museums for hunters?I have been to the fred Bear archery museum in gainsville florida and it was awsome!I was in there about 3hours and had to hurry to see it all.It is highly recommended.I had to mention PaPa Bears
Name here with these other great hunters.I have a Picture of him and wally johnson with a lion and one of papa bear with a nice Cape buffalo,both archery kills,in a glass case in my living Room.Would Love to have some photos of the other Greats.I saw a Picture of selous one time where he was sitting in a chair in camp and there was a single shot martini looking rifle leaned up beside him and a ostridge bird laying there I assume fixing to go in the pot.it was a great shot.Wish I could download and send them hear so everyone one could see them and i could share them with you mates..........

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Ingwe
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18949 - 05/09/04 02:15 AM

BBH,

You had asked earlier about the use of 30.06 class cartridges on elephant, and I thought you might be interested to see this. It is a quote from an article I read, and I found it very interesting:

In reply to:

"The Zimbabwean Parks department used 7,62x54R and 30-06 for almost all their culling (over 23,000 elephants in the 1980’s), whilst .303’s and AK’s (7.62x39) in the hands of peasant farmers and poachers have probably killed more elephants than any other calibre. In short, shot placement is everything."




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Learn from other people's mistakes - you can't live long enough to make them all yourself.

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Ingwe
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Ingwe]
      #18951 - 05/09/04 02:30 AM

BBH,

Another thing I found interesting was that I once read that Bell was considered to be indirectly responsible for the deaths of approximately 100 other hunters who were trying to imitate Bell by hunting in Africa with small calibers.

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Learn from other people's mistakes - you can't live long enough to make them all yourself.

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blackbearhunter
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Ingwe]
      #18954 - 05/09/04 04:16 AM

This Post has been so much fun and interesting.Fantastic information! Thanks Bunches fellows!!!
I read where a hunter tried to take on a chargeing lion one time with the savage 22.Hi power and lost. He died in the fight. I think it was in one of capsticks reads.I have read almost all of his stories and saw last safari on video.I read about the lions of savo years& years ago and watched the ghost in the darkness a dozen times and still watch it from time to time.Another movie i know by heart is The bear.When the old grizzly corners that dude in the draw up in the high mountains and gets in his face and screams to let him know he has him dead left to rights and then lets the poor hunter live is one of my all time favorite movie takes.All of jack london stuff is classic reads too.I know call of the wild pretty much by heart.Ruperd kipling is a great favorite also.Any books you guys recommend is greatly appreciated and I will definately check them out as I always enjoy a great read and love history. Thanks









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ALF
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #19366 - 23/09/04 12:28 AM

Was scanning through the past posts and happened on this one.

On defining Africa's greatest elephant hunter we need to delineate between "writer hunters" and those who did not write about their exploits.

Southern African hunting history has it that there are unknown to the followers of Safari press and Trophy room books a number of Boer hunters who qualify as Africa's greatest hunters.

The likely candidate one Jan Viljoen, the mentor and friend of Selous. Selous himself elevates Viljoen the to level of Africa's greatest hunter. This guy hunted for some 30 years compared to Bell's 14 year span in Africa. Selous only hunted about 16 years.

Then there is Petrus Jacobs who hunted for 40 years and died of wounds sustained from a wounded lion attack when he was in his 70's. Jacobs shot 200 elephant alone in the company of his friend Viljoen.

The proof of their hunting skill unfortunately never written up until relatively recently . What we do have is archival documentation showing ivory shipments from Africa at the time of their hunting. Also historical data pertaining to the amount of ball and powder used by these hunters at the time.

There are a number of historical books in Afrikaans in South Africa that explores the historical fact of their passing.

As to Rowland Ward: This is a topic in it's own right sufficed to say RW was never a Record book as we use it today. RW was a scientific publication citing species and horn dimension as measurement. It is only with the advent of the american- african hunting expereince in the 50's in East Africa that RW takes on a new role and that is a statement of status as it pertains to the shooting of a big specimens.

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Will
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: ALF]
      #19386 - 23/09/04 09:39 AM

ALF,

The term "greatest" is a relative judgment and depends on who is doing the judging.

Viljoen and Jacobs were basically meat (ivory) hunters, much as Selous, who were potting every living thing they came across, or at least this is what I have concluded from the mentions of them in the literature.

Many of the turn of the 19th century hunters give the distinction of the greatest elephant hunter to Jimmy Sutherland. I would agree with that in that, from his book anyway, there was a spirit of the love of elephant hunting, not primarily for financial gain but for his love of elephants and elephant hunting.

Was what Sutherland or Viljoen or Selous did better or worse than the pure "trophy" unters today? At least today the typical tourist-hunter is restricted from killing everything in sight.

For better or worse, it was the British that apparently promoted the idea of game conservation while the reputation of the Boers of eliminating game in South Africa to the last animal is presumably well deserved.

All these men were great hunters. Who was the greatest depends on ones own definition of hunting, conservation, and sport.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Gibbs505
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Will]
      #19451 - 27/09/04 09:58 AM

There is also Iodenes, not sure of spelling who lived his life from his 20's in Africa. He surley ranks up there whi the best!

--------------------
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Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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M82A1Barret50Cal
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: mickey]
      #19463 - 27/09/04 02:06 PM

In reply to Mickey's post about Bells not being the greatest elephant hunter because he has not shot as many elephants or spent as long hunting elephants as others, i beg to differ. I think the reason that Bell was such a great hunter is because he was so raw, he didn't rely on huge muzzle energy, or massive expansion, he relied purely on his skill and knowledge of the elephant anatomy. I don't know of any other hunters who took elephants down with .22 cal bullets, even his favourite, the .275H&H is still a tiny cal compared to what most hunters use these days...

M82A1

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: M82A1Barret50Cal]
      #19863 - 20/10/04 11:57 AM

IIRC, there is an article regarding the disposition of the .275 Rigby in this month's American Rifleman...

I've got it somewhere around here...

--------------------
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When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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AussieMike
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #19930 - 22/10/04 02:32 PM

When I hunted in Zambia a few years ago my PH told me he had taken his only elephant with a 30-06, his first lion with a 12ga loaded with half buckshot half no. 6 shot and his first leopard with a 22 rimfire, the latter two while he was a teenager. I suspect most African game that is taken by locals is taken with way smaller calibres than we trophy hunters use.

Sadly, I suspect the all time greatest elephant cartridge (in terms of number of animals shot) is the 7.62x39 (AK 47), if we are too believe that elephant numbers declined from 1.2 million to 500,000 - 600,000 in the '80's.

mike

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DPhillips
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: M82A1Barret50Cal]
      #19945 - 23/10/04 02:22 AM

In reply to:

I don't know of any other hunters who took elephants down with .22 cal bullets, even his favourite, the .275H&H is still a tiny cal compared to what most hunters use these days...



The .275 H&H and .275 Rigby are two different animals. The 275 Rigby is pretty much a renamed 7x57, the 275 H&H is a shortened and necked down 375 H&H Mag, very similar ballistically to the 7mm Rem Mag.

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BFaucett
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Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #19948 - 23/10/04 07:56 AM

In reply to:

Poster: dasMafia
IIRC, there is an article regarding the disposition of the .275 Rigby in this month's American Rifleman...

I've got it somewhere around here...



Yep, November 2004, American Rifleman. Great article on the .275 Rigby by Joe Coogan. Joe mentions Gail Selby's hunt where she took her first Elephant with a .275 Rigby. This was with the W. D. M. Bell .275 rifle that Robert Ruark purchased and gave to Mark Selby (Harry's son). (If memory serves me correctly, Bell had 2 or 3 different rifles in .275 Rigby over the course of his career.)

BTW, Gail Selby Wentink has a web site. Some great stories and photos.

http://gabrimaun.tripod.com/


Gail Selby with her father Harry Selby

"Over the years I have experienced many wonderful moments in the Botswana bush with my father, Harry Selby. Each trip held its share of fear, humour, excitement, disappointment, success and hard work. I enjoy hunting (I shot my first elephant when I was 14 years old) and have had the privilege of being a spectator on many great hunts."
from: The End of Season Elephant by Gail Selby.
Story published in Magnum/Man Magazine January 1987 and in later years in the first edition of Hunting in Botswana by Tony Sanchez-Ariño and printed by Safari Press.

Her web site is worth a look.

-Bob F.

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