Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Guide Ethics

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)
Bakes
.375 member


Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Guide Ethics
      #6077 - 23/12/03 11:05 PM

Some interesting conversations going on at the moment.

Thought I throw this out there, hypat...hyperth.....aww you know .

Your a guide and you have a client who wants to shoot a red deer. He would like a big one, but doesn't need to show off to his peers, so an average one will do if a big one can't be found, as long as its fair chase. Now you know where a BIG stag is, but that night you get a call from a bloke who wants a record book stag and is willing to pay triple the trophy fee, as his friend at the club just shot a big stag and he has to beat him. What do you do? Guide your current client to the big bloke or save him for the rich punter?

Hmmmmmmm........Human nature says save him for the rich guy......after all you can give the land owner the normal trophy fee and pocket the rest, no one will know........Hmmmmmm

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
470Nitro
.333 member


Reged: 17/09/03
Posts: 467
Loc: Madrid - Spain
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Bakes]
      #6081 - 24/12/03 12:01 AM

A "good" pro always keep a trophy animal for a "special" client

--------------------
-----
down by the river on a friday night
pyramid of cans in the pale moonlight
talkin' 'bout guns and dreamin 'bout women
never had a plan just a livin' for the minute

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Bakes]
      #6086 - 24/12/03 04:55 AM

When it comes to ethics, there is no gray area. Things are either black or white. If you find yourself in a gray area, do what's right.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Bakes]
      #6094 - 24/12/03 12:17 PM

If I like the current fellow I try for the big one. If he is an Ass I don't. Where we hunt it is all pot luck. No landowners or fences. The only way to know the where abouts of a big animal is to scout and to hope he hasn't moved since somebody last saw him.

Most good business men in the business will judge who would spend the most money in the long run, not the next day.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: mickey]
      #6116 - 24/12/03 09:35 PM

Let me throw out another hypothetical.

Say someone gets on their high horse, and comes up with a new post that is one more version of "My Way, or the Highway."

Then the topic is belaboured beyond reason until a diminished group of posters have formed a circle-jerk, where the few remaining posters are in total agreement.

Then, someone gets on their high horse, and comes up with a new post.......

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Will]
      #6117 - 24/12/03 11:51 PM

Just get on a higher horse , and always remember, that if you can't confuse them with facts, baffle 'em with B.S.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bakes
.375 member


Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Will]
      #6119 - 25/12/03 01:43 AM

Now getting up on the big horse!

Just making conversation Will, no need to get antsy, if you think its a shit question then don't reply.

Shouldn't the current client get 100% of the guides effort?
Asshole or not he's paying the bill?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Bakes]
      #6125 - 25/12/03 06:53 AM

Personally, I (and my staff) give every client 110% performance 110% of the time...... whether the client is a nice guy or not.....and 99.99% of them are nice guys. (or gals)

If we see or know of a particularly good trophy then the client at the time gets the chance to try for it if he wishes. At no additional cost.

I've always believed that if somethings not right then it's wrong. This attitude not only keeps me happy, but it ensures that clients come back and rebook time after time.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: shakari]
      #6162 - 27/12/03 05:18 AM

I'll just say, nobody has a corner on ethics! For example some think it is ethical to use the foulest language, in the company of women and kids, I do not! Some think it is ethical shoot another elk if they loose the one they wounded, I do not! Some think it is a canned hunt if an animal is hunted on a fenced ranch, no matter how large, or the type of cover, and concielment avalible to that animal, I do not! Some think it is ethical to shoot at an elk at 500 yds, I do not! Some say it is unethical to hunt animals that are transplants, I do not! And finally some think what THEY consider to be ethical, is the only ethical way to do anything, by anyone, I DO NOT!

The, "MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY , folks are simply a little more than taken with their own image of themselves, and need to learn that their freedom to swing, ends at the tip of the other man's nose. They need to tend to their own knitting, and leave everyone else alone! People, like that, are only the flip side of the same coin, spent by animal rights, and gun grab idiots! My way or the highway, control freaks, nothing more!

The soap box is open, ..........NEXT!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AspenHill
Sponsor


Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
Loc: Vermont, USA
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #6163 - 27/12/03 05:36 AM

Mac, you are my hero.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DBBill
.300 member


Reged: 25/05/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Southern California, USA
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Bakes]
      #6165 - 27/12/03 07:27 AM

To me this is pretty simple. Hopefully you have explained to the present client what he can expect for a good trophy in the area you're hunting. It is then up to the client to make a decision to shoot or not to shoot....here's the scenario....you find a nice typical red deer for the area and you tell the client while there may be larger ones around it's up to him to shoot or not. If he doesn't shoot you keep hunting until he does or goes home without one. This pre-supposes you don't intentionally steer him away from the area you suspect the "big one" is in.

Second scenario.....you tell the present client about the potential opportunity for the "big one" and also tell him about the other client's interest. You then tell him if he passes on the big one, if you run across it, you will make it up to him if he takes a typical animal instead. This could be in the form of a reduced trophy fee for the red deer or a "free" animal he hadn't planned on taking or some other perk. If the client says he'd like to try for the big one the PH is stuck and should try his best.

If I were the PH I would opt for the first scenario as the other has the potential to back-fire if the existing client doesn't get a red deer.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: DBBill]
      #6169 - 27/12/03 11:32 AM

Is it just a coincedence that the same old people, same old rich people, have such a high percentage of the top animals? Is it because they go more often, because they are luckier or are they all just better hunters?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: mickey]
      #6170 - 27/12/03 12:12 PM

Are you going to answer your own question?



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Bakes]
      #6171 - 27/12/03 12:36 PM

I haven't hunted with guides a lot.

Those I have hunted with seemed a good sort.

The best was a NZ guy and he stated up front if there was a big animal around. It was up to the hunter to try for it but possibly go home empty handed. And if it cost extra. The only reason this one cost extra was the landowner had upped the price a great deal AFTER the season started.

Often the guide will ask the client. "What sort of trophy are you looking for?" If you are like me, you will say a representative head and that is probably what you get. If you demand a record head or nothing, I guess you make the guide work harder if he wants a satisfied client. Of course you have to be willing to go home empty handed this way. Or I was believe often these people can home very unsatisfied, but perhaps they should learn what hunting is about.

A story of a couple of clients. A husband and wife. Both were happy and having fun. Neither stated they were after a monster. The man worried he wouldn't be taking home to brag about shot something early. OK but not huge and he was happy. His wife shot something much bigger a couple of days later. For the rest of the hunt the man acted sulked and acted like he was cheated.

Personally I find these "trophy" "awards" schemes the most silly and unethical part of hunting. More about bragging than enjoying hunting. I quite like winning a "trophy of the year" medallion from a local club, but not a big deal.

It is a great wonder sometimes how certain individuals, sporting magazine writers, club presidents etc do bag the big ones. Usually also have the boss outfitter hunting with them. Well not really a great "wonder" at all. Don't believe the hype.


***


The "guide" I usually have is a bit of a twit and wouldn't know where the big ones are anyway and usually shoots something smaller. A week later another more savvy hunter shoots a monster off the same block!

But in the end doesn't worry me, because "I did it my way !!!!"



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Will]
      #6174 - 27/12/03 01:03 PM

In reply to:

Let me throw out another hypothetical.

Say someone gets on their high horse, and comes up with a new post that is one more version of "My Way, or the Highway." .......



Will

In Aust we like to do our own thing. Thirty years ago there was NO paid hunting, and NO guides. And it was wonderful for those who knew what was where and what was what.

My guess is Bakes has never used a guide and maybe never will.

I don't see where in his question he is saying not to use guides ie "My way, or the Highway". But unfortunately other peoples "ways" have been forced upon us here, by the pursuit of the dollar.

Also we do not have large areas of public land to hunt on, government permits of public game animals. Almost all game here is owned by the landowner who decides what access others have. I personally would hate to see a situation like in South Africa and Zimbabwe where the citizen hunters are second class citizens unable to afford to hunt the representative species of their own countries.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Will]
      #6175 - 27/12/03 01:03 PM

Will

The answer is already in the thread. I'm just trying to breathe some more honesty into it.

Let me set up a scenario.

You are a competent PH in the RSA and you have a concession that has Nyala. You currently have a client who has saved for years from his job as a clerk at 7-11 to come on a 7 day hunt and this person only wants a nice Nyala to take back to the trailer park.

Mr. ArrogantRicherthanasmallcountry has his personnal agent call and tell you that he wants a 30 inch Nyala and if you can get him one he will fly down next week, along with 10 of his closet Secretaries, that he is picking up in London from a modeling agency, and wants your entire camp. He is even bringing his own H2 to use that he will leave for a tip and will send a check for 5 new Toyotas for his friends who may want to get dressed and look around the local Shopping Mall a bit.. He will pay the full fare for everyone because he can and is a nice guy.

Being a consumate proffesional you have scouted your area and know the where abouts of an animal that will fit the bill. Moral dilema, do you keep your current client away from that area so he won't see the animal and thus not shoot it or do you take him there and hunt for it?

Do you sent your current client home with a trophy he will be proud of (it will be the biggest Neyala in the trailer court) without ever knowing he should have done better and make two years profit in 10 days or let him shoot the big one and spend the next week watching the springboks and the All Blacks on the tele?



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: mickey]
      #6177 - 27/12/03 01:47 PM

Hee, Hee, Hee.

Not only does Patel not get close but you cancel his hunt, in case there might be some conflict over trophies and he accidentally kills the monster nyala, or neyala, whatever that is, and potentially may interfere somehow with the big hunt. If he shows up anyway, as you couldn't cancel in time before he left home, you have him killed at the Joberg airport.

P.S.

To save face with his relatives, you transport his body to the fenced enclosure and let the canned lion feed for a day or two, thereafter shipping his remains home. Another reminder of the danger of dangerous game.



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Will]
      #6179 - 27/12/03 02:30 PM

All Right, we agree. Nice touch with the Lions. Maybe a video to make a few extra bucks at the SCI Convention.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bakes
.375 member


Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: NitroX]
      #6185 - 28/12/03 12:21 AM

As Nitro said I've never used a guide, but might one day. I like the fact that everything I've done I've done by myself, but I would like to get into deer hunting and if I have to I will use a guide. I would like to think that my guide would give me 100% effort and show me a monster stag if one was around, if not well he can just say "well there's no huge ones around but there is some nice big 5x5's or 4x5'x. I'm not begrudging anybody using the services of a guide, an its not "my way or the Highway" Its "what ever floats your boat" My post was not intended to have a go at anybody it was just to spark conversation.

But since we are on the subject here are MY
own code of ethics.

1. Canned hunts- If you want to do it fine, just don't say your a hunter, your a shooter!
2. Getting the guide to shoot the thing and you sitting behind it. Its been done and its bullshit.
3. Shooting game from a vehicle. I've shot foxes/rabbits/hares and pigs out spotlighting but I'll call it what it is, its shooting not hunting.
4. Trucking in an animal, keep it locked up and thirsty then release it near a waterhole for the client to shoot. Thats crap.
5. Poaching. Flying in a client by chopper, into someone else's land and shooting an animal. Thats crap as well.
6. Buying heads and claiming them as your own. Give me a break.

There MY ethics, If someones into that sort of thing, good on them.

We Australians don't give respect out easily, you only have to look at the way we treat our pollies. If someone big notes himself, and is found out to be all bullshit, we tend to wash our hands of them. This is especially true in the hunting community. We don't care about if a bloke has huge trophys on the wall, we just care if the bloke is fair dinkum.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: NitroX]
      #6193 - 28/12/03 03:24 PM

In reply to:

In Aust we like to do our own thing. Thirty years ago there was NO paid hunting, and NO guides. And it was wonderful for those who knew what was where and what was what.



Nitro, actually there were established, paid hunting safari outfits operating in Australia more than 40 years ago.


Bakes,
Regarding ethics and guides, how about this for a hypothetical.
Let's say someone has heard a lot of stories and rumours regarding the, shall we say, less than ethical practices of a certain guide.
Now someone doesn't like this particular guide, but has never actually personally witnessed any of these unethical practices, and in fact has never met the guide nor had any direct dealings with him whatsoever.
Therefore someone cannot verify or prove that any/all these stories are in fact true, false, or highly exaggerated.

My question is......

Would it be considered "ethical" for someone to post some of those rumours and stories on a hunting forum where members/hunters/possible clients could be influenced by them?
Or would it be "ethical" to attempt to stick to the facts that are supported by hard evidence?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bakes
.375 member


Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: 4seventy]
      #6203 - 28/12/03 08:04 PM

Yep! Its word of mouth. If someone asks "what do you think of this guy?" and gets an answer "well don't know him but I've heard..." It up to you if you hunt with him. Its the same with say gunsmiths. "What do you think of this guys work"...."Never used him, but he stuffed up a mates gun" same could be said with mechanics/builders and so on.

If a guide was kicked off someones land for shady reasons, would you (a client) like to know about it?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Bakes]
      #6207 - 28/12/03 08:39 PM

Yeah OK, but is this information that someone gives about a guide (or whatever other business person) based on fact or heresay?
I mean, if there is solid EVIDENCE regarding a shonky dude well then I guess it would be best to know about it, but if the story is only based on rumour, is it of any true value to anyone?
I for one would not like being judged on heresay.
Would anyone else?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bakes
.375 member


Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: 4seventy]
      #6209 - 28/12/03 10:17 PM

I suppose if the rumor is being told to you by a mate you trust, then you would be inclined to belive it. There are rumors being told about a certain PH. These are from people who know the other partys involved. Now if they were to tell a story/rumor about the PH it would be second hand info, but would you be inclined to belive it if you trusted the person telling the story?

Now if story's keep going around about the same bloke but for different things, even though they are rumors, you would be starting to think that somethings not right with this PH/business man etc.

Now I'm sure there are people on this site that think I'm a dickhead , they have never met me and only know me by what I write about certain subjects, if they told a mate that "shit that Bakes is a wanker" your mate will have a mind set about me even though he's never met me. Is that a fair way to judge someone. Not really but there's not much I can do about it, its their opinion.

People get judged all the time based on what other people say or think about them. It happeneds in my job. If we have a new guy posted into the section we ring up his old section and ask about him. I want to know if my new troop is unsafe around the dogs or a bit lax about kennel cleaning, if he's got the balls to come in and pull a dog off me that's chewing me up. Any good or bad things I get told is hersay but it gets filed away and when I meet my new troop I sit back and watch how he operates. But I have a pretty good idea on what he's like.



Edited by Bakes (28/12/03 10:29 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
cr500
.300 member


Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 213
Loc: Singleton ,Australia
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Bakes]
      #6297 - 31/12/03 10:47 AM

Well ,on with the original question. I think that if you were in the guide game to support yourself and raise a family, then buisness sense would point the way towards saving the big deer for the big payer, if the poor bloke was going to be happy with his average deer. Its not the politicaly correct answer I know.
I will be going for my first Red Deer in mid april and though I know there are going to be double 7 pointers out there, I would be very pleased to get a double 5. Next time after that I would want a double 6. My ultimate goal would then be a double7 pointer.
In the end I think human nature would take over. If the poor hunter was a realy top bloke,good hunter and worked hard and you bonded well, then would would probably take him to the good deer, especialy if the real rich bloke was a complete prick.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Guide Ethics [Re: Bakes]
      #6402 - 03/01/04 12:10 AM

Yes, getting back to the original question, good idea.
Bakes,
The first client sounds like he is really wanting a good hunt and hopefully also take a quality head if the oportunity arises.
Therefore I would give him my best effort and try to deliver what he is paying to get.
The second client sounds like he is really just wanting to buy a record head to show off and doesn't care much about hunting or ethics etc.
So if hunter No1 takes a good head and the monster head was still available, and this other guy wants to pay what it is worth, I guess I could give him my best effort also to try and deliver what he is paying for.
With true free range hunting there is no guarantee that we will find and get the monster anyway. Some bloody poacher has probably already nailed him if he is really all that good!

Regarding how the trophy fee is paid for the monster head,
only a fool guide would try giving the land owner the shaft!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 38 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4128

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved