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hoppdoc
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AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN??
      #55467 - 22/04/06 01:22 PM

I would like to think that I can shoot and handle recoil better than most hunters. I like my 338 and 300 Ultra(ouch)mag and tolerate my 416 but recoil is a very subjective thing. I have musclebound friends who will not tolerate more recoil than a 12 gauge delivers and refuse to shoot any 300 mag/338 WM and above.It's just not worth the aggravation to them. And there are some light guns I just don't like to shoot with hot loads like the lever Marlin Guide gun with hot 400 gr loads.Its effective but obnoxious.I am assuming its the recoil velocity that I dislike with this load/rifle.

Is there an objective test that forum members would suggest to determine if one has too much gun?? Multiple shots on a timed course at a given distance? What size target would be suggested to shoot at with what gun? For the 375?, the 416, the 458Wm and various Doubles, and the 500 class Doubles/bolt guns??

One needs to know ones limitations!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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mickey
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55469 - 22/04/06 01:33 PM

Do you have to consciously make an effort to concentrate not to flinch? If you do than you are shooting too much gun.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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shakari
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: mickey]
      #55489 - 22/04/06 05:32 PM

As you say, it's very subjective. From my experience it's not really the calibre that is the deciding factor. I reckon it's rifle weight, stock design and factors such as muzzle brakes (not that I like 'em!), mercury/tungsten bead recoil arrestors and to a large extent physical build of the shooter. I've found that tall thin shooters seem to generally have a lot more trouble with recoil than shooters with my sort of build which is short and stocky/broad.

I guess one test is whether the shooter can take repeated freehand shots with their rifle - but really the only acid test is whether they develop a flinch or not. I always use my .500 Jeffery wherever I hunt and don't have any problems with it at all - but had a client last year (who incidentally was 6' 6" and skinny) and he was very recoil shy indeed.........

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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hoppdoc
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: shakari]
      #55490 - 22/04/06 05:49 PM

I would tend to agree that smaller framed individuals dislike recoil intensely presumably because of the recoil and movement it imparts on their low mass/?muscling from the waist up---
but I have a friend who is tall and wirey with better muscling from climbing poles for the Telephone company who likes shooting my 416!!

I agree that folks with a thick build shoot the big stuff better if they want too!!! And yes I am tall and thick and I do love shooting big bores at larger animals-Elk/Moose/Bear etc.

Must be something about the "TTHWACK" sound when the bullet hits!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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shakari
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55491 - 22/04/06 06:50 PM

That said,

I had a zoologist friend who was tiny and weighed about as much as a wet dishcloth and she used to shoot a .458 without any problems...... but maybe she was the exception to the rule.

Sadly she got killed by an Elephant a couple of years ago........

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Will
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55493 - 22/04/06 07:24 PM

"I would like to think that I can shoot and handle recoil better than most hunters. "

Who doesn't?

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_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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zimhunter
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55505 - 23/04/06 12:54 AM

I DON'T handle recoil well. I shoot bigbores and have for over 50 years. My upper limit is 22LR. I'm serious in my dislike and take every step to reduce it. Proper stock,proper recoil pad, mercury reducers and any trick but muzzle breaks and I even have one 416Rigby Ruger that is Mag-Na-Ported. It's a purely subjective and individual thing in my opinion. I seem to feel most uncomfortable with a 300 Win Mag than with anything else. The second most uncomfortable is a 458 Win Mag. As a result I don't own either caliber. I handle and shoot 375H&H with little problem and my 470 double off hand is not a problem as also my 416Rigby Brno. I don't know what the deciding factor is but with me I believe it is the recoil 'impulse' for lack of a better term.

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MRobinson
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: zimhunter]
      #55519 - 23/04/06 03:00 AM

The key, as others have said, is to have a well-built rifle--straightish buttstock, enough weight for caliber (or even a bit heavy for caliber), a heavy contoured barrel, a good, at least 1" thick recoil pad, one or two mercury tubes in the buttstock--and use a firm grip on it.

Maybe because all of my rifles fit that description, I am not sensitive to recoil. I shoot rifles up to a .500 A2 with over 100 ft.-lbs. of recoil energy without discomfort. The recoil just doesn't bother me. With a poorly built rifle, I'm sure I'd feel differently, but thankfully I won't have to find out because I won't use a poorly built rifle.

Also I believe about recoil as Yogi Berra believed about hitting a baseball. "90% of recoil is half mental." Just ignore it and it will go away. I do believe that is true. Works for me, anyway.

Now, to answer your question, I would think that as long as you can put a magazine full in the black at the target range, on demand, at the likely distance at which you will be shooting in the field, from field positions, and without waiting too long between shots, you should be more than good to go.



--------------------
Mike

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Will
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: MRobinson]
      #55531 - 23/04/06 06:23 AM

"straightish buttstock, enough weight for caliber (or even a bit heavy for caliber), a heavy contoured barrel, a good, at least 1" thick recoil pad, one or two mercury tubes in the buttstock--and use a firm grip on it."

By the time all that mass is added, it must rival the weight of a Chevy pickup. No wonder recoil doesn't bother you!

My 9.3 lb. Lott was too much for me on the range. 4 or 5 full power loads off-hand, and headache central.


--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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MRobinson
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: Will]
      #55532 - 23/04/06 08:39 AM

Will, Will, Will . . .

9.3 lbs. for a Lott is much too light. You should have known better. Your complaining about recoil from that rifle is like the cook complaining to the waiter about the taste of dinner!

My Lott weighs in at 11 lbs., plus or minus. Not quite a Chevy pick-up (God forbid and thanks be to Him for Fords, but that's another subject). I have carried it (and heavier rifles, too, for that matter) all day long without a problem.

I suppose I could easily handle the recoil generated by a 10.5 lb. Lott, but much lighter than that I would not want.

Bigger calibers require well designed, including but not limited to heavy enough, rifles. That ain't rocket science, after all.

If a lighter rifle is wanted, with less recoil, then a lighter caliber is needed. But, of course, you know that.

So, quitcherbitchin'. You still have your .416s, and when you are too old and feeble for them, you'll still have a .375 . . .

--------------------
Mike

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hoppdoc
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: MRobinson]
      #55534 - 23/04/06 11:15 AM

Whew!!

You guys dicussing the 416 weight makes me feel better.
I don't feel like such a Recoil WUSSY.No wonder I feel like they beat me up!

My rifles-
375 H&H, scoped -~9.0 pounds!
416 Rem bolt-~9.0 pounds!
458 WM-~8.5 pounds
470 NE-10.7 pounds!!

No wonder I like shooting the 470 better than the 458!!

I think I will try shooting 2 pieplate targets 6" in diameter about 10 yards apart at about 30 yards and see how fast I can shoot both targets.
I'm kinda feeling the Double or 375H&H is going to win that match!!




--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (23/04/06 11:17 AM)

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shakari
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55541 - 23/04/06 03:46 PM

My .500 Jeffery weighs a tad over 12 lbs (unloaded) and is made to measure which will also help reduce the felt recoil......

FWIW, I like to practise by putting out a few 2 litre milk cartons filled with water at varying distances (anything from a few yards to about 80 yards) and angles and then shooting them as quickly as I can...............

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (23/04/06 03:51 PM)

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allenday
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55552 - 24/04/06 01:04 AM

I can shoot anything up to a 416 Rem. Mag. without feeling that I'm using too much gun. When I get to anything above 458 Win. Mag., I simply can't do good work, and I don't really care for the 458 Win. Mag., either.

I do my very best work with cartridges between 270 Win. and 338 Win. Mag., and I'd take a solid cartridge in that range for day-in, day-out plainsgame use any day of the week, rather than use a 416 or some sort of other big-bore to shoot everything from dik dik to buffalo. If it got down to that, I'd quit hunting those animals that required a big-bore altogether.

"Too much gun" can mean the wrong kind of gun as well. I don't care for doubles; I don't care to shoot them, and I don't want to learn to shoot them. They're just not for me......

AD

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500grains
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: allenday]
      #55555 - 24/04/06 01:15 AM

For relatively precise shooting, I top out at the 458 Lott, and for reasonable accuracy for close range shooting I top out with the 500 NE.

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Boomer
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: allenday]
      #55558 - 24/04/06 01:24 AM

My personal test is if I can hold 3 shots prone. I believe that a rifle may be called upon to shoot from any position, and in the case of heavy kickers, prone is the worst case scenerio. Much has to do with stock design, my Ruger #1 .416 Rigby was a pleasure to shoot. I had a light Mauser X .458 which was less so, but still manageable. The only powerful rifle I currently own is a .375 Ultra, but this is my hunting rifle/bear gun, and it's what I grab when ever I run out the door regardless of intent. If I ever get into the .577 club I may need to find a new test.

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hoppdoc
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: allenday]
      #55591 - 24/04/06 11:08 AM

I have more problems managing heavy bolts than My Double.

I can't prove it scientifically but the heavier shorter weight with the wider forepiece seems to give me better recoil control for a second shoot.

I like my Double!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55683 - 25/04/06 02:44 PM

as a caveat, I'm a) 27, and b) stupid.

I guess as long as it leaves me with a shite-eating grin when I fire it offhand and I can get through the bench session to sight-in...

its not too much.

I had a No. 1 in 375 H&H (some of you may remember, its gone now... baby furniture, drat), but that gun weighed all of 8.5lbs... and it was AWESOME!!!!! I loved it!!!!

but again, see a) and b) above.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Will
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55706 - 25/04/06 06:57 PM

"I can't prove it scientifically"

I would suggest not trying to prove it!

Maybe, just maybe, it is an individual thing, but my 10 lb. double 470 was absolute punishment compared to my 8.3 lb 458 WM. Doubles have just too much drop.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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JPK
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: Will]
      #55717 - 25/04/06 10:53 PM

Doubles, like any rifle, need to fit the shooter for best results, including the least felt recoil. There is no intrinsic reason a double needs to have more drop that a bolt rifle, assuming both are set up for use with open sights.

I figure you aren't using too much gun if you are wondering, and sometimes shooting to see just how accurate your rifle is rather than wondering whether you can keep it in the black when you are shooting it.

JPK

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500grains
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: JPK]
      #55723 - 25/04/06 11:34 PM

One way to reduce felt recoil is to have a gun that fits you with a good recoil pad.

Another is to improve muscle tone in the upper body. This means weight lifting, and hopefully also a reduction in body fat. Of course it is easier to just sell the .470 and buy a .416 than to undertake a serious exercise program.

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hoppdoc
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: 500grains]
      #55786 - 26/04/06 09:47 AM

I think 500grains is dead on the money about recoil tolerance.

When I first started shooting my 416 Rem I thought it was just too much gun. I started on exercises and an upper body routine because of incidental use of an available gym.Within 4 months I was able to tolerate the rifle much better and not just endure it. Muscle tone, stock fit, rifle control,and desire have a lot to do with good shooting.Poor muscle tone would allow the rifle just to drive deeply and shock the supporting structure of the shoulder. I feel toned muscle transmits the blow as more of a "push" IMHO.

My wife noted ?some improvement in her shooting of my 30.06 after a summer at the gym but that is hard to determine since she really doesn't enjoy hunting or shooting.

Like most things I think you gotta want it and work at it to get the best results.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (26/04/06 09:51 AM)

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Will
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55787 - 26/04/06 10:11 AM

I think 500 grains is full of shit, as usual.

Maybe if he was concerned about knowing how to shoot elephant and not so much about shooting off his mouth, he could hit something.

Once a sniping twit, always a sniping twit.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Yogi000
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: Will]
      #55830 - 26/04/06 11:59 PM

One of the funnier posts I read was from a seasoned hunter who said something to the effect----

"I point my 458 at the game, pull the trigger, and whoever gets up first is the declared winner!"

The situation of too much gun is, as one might expect, quite common. Our culture promotes bigger is better and more horsepower or more caliber is what you NEED. ie ---'gotta have it. Plus the idea of a really big animal that might kill you does justify the survival response of going for the biggest club or the biggest caliber you can even think you might be able to handle.

I like big guns and I like managed recoil, more push than a sharp WHACK. The right gun fit for the person is huge and in my humble personal experience I like the Pachmyr Decelerator and Edward's Recoil Reducers, in-stock. This combo tames some hard whackers... in my opinion and in my experience. And do some people have too much gun, well if you ask alot of seasoned hunters and PH's some guys have waytoo much gun for them and they arrive to hunt never having shot the dern thing... that is a sin, somewhere, isn't it? If it isn't it should be....

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hoppdoc
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: Will]
      #55836 - 27/04/06 02:15 AM

Will--

Having a bad day? Got your shorts in a tight?

Aside from your personal ad hominem response to a forum member being contrare Lex Loci--

May I ask exactly what specific contentious issues and facts have provoked your post?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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MopaneMike
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Re: AFRICAN HUNTERS--DO YOU HAVE TOO MUCH GUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #56115 - 01/05/06 12:51 AM

I'm waiting for Will's reply also

--------------------
MopaneMike


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