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NitroXAdministrator
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Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion?
      #362542 - 23/02/22 02:05 AM

Quote:

High fence lion hunt can be a dangerous hunt. You track them and you will see their tracks on your tracks. If in cold weather it can be a long hunt. When hot they heat up and stop to wait on you. They know you are on their tail. My hunt was a three day affair just south of Botswana.




From a comment online ...

What do you think?

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John aka NitroX

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Ripp
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: NitroX]
      #362545 - 23/02/22 02:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

High fence lion hunt can be a dangerous hunt. You track them and you will see their tracks on your tracks. If in cold weather it can be a long hunt. When hot they heat up and stop to wait on you. They know you are on their tail. My hunt was a three day affair just south of Botswana.




From a comment online ...

What do you think?




Remember that video years ago ??--Believe it was in S Africa.. lion charged.. 4 people shooting.. he finally dropped I believe after he went through all of them.. will have to look it up..

Found it.. one guy screams like a school girl..:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsqTXEM02Mk

My lion hunt in Zim was anti-climatic really.. found him on bait.. snuck in to the blind.. shot him with my 416 at about 80 yards.. done... Tuskless elephant and buffalo are way more exciting IMHO...

Here is one I found quickly --wild hunt..not canned..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr9dJrVNH2g

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (23/02/22 02:20 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: Ripp]
      #362605 - 23/02/22 06:05 PM

I wish it was more legitimate. Far cheaper and far higher success rates than actual free range sporting wild lion hunts.

I got that quotation from a Farcebook group of South Africans most trying to tout their farce lion hunts behind wire. And sucked in or lying clients trying to pretend their trophy MGM lion was weally weally wild ...

That Botswana reference is because some outfitters try to pretend the lion hunted is a wild Botswana lion that crossed the border and jumped into the high fenced lion paddock ...

A useful bit of information however:

Quote:

For breeding, minimum is 1 ha (100m x 100m) per lion, app 2,2 acres. For hunting it differs between provinces. Minimum is 1,000 ha and some 3,000 ha. Release time also differs between provinces, from 7 days to 3 months. No feeding or baiting allowed




A lion transferred from a one hectare hand feeding cage, into 1000 ha high fenced paddocks, 7 days ago hungry from being inexperienced in catching its own unbutchered meat .... Challenging ...

I gather this is the new "non canned" lion hunting minimums ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ripp
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: NitroX]
      #362613 - 24/02/22 01:49 AM

Quote:

I wish it was more legitimate. Far cheaper and far higher success rates than actual free range sporting wild lion hunts.

I got that quotation from a Farcebook group of South Africans most trying to tout their farce lion hunts behind wire. And sucked in or lying clients trying to pretend their trophy MGM lion was weally weally wild ...

That Botswana reference is because some outfitters try to pretend the lion hunted is a wild Botswana lion that crossed the border and jumped into the high fenced lion paddock ...

A useful bit of information however:

Quote:

For breeding, minimum is 1 ha (100m x 100m) per lion, app 2,2 acres. For hunting it differs between provinces. Minimum is 1,000 ha and some 3,000 ha. Release time also differs between provinces, from 7 days to 3 months. No feeding or baiting allowed




A lion transferred from a one hectare hand feeding cage, into 1000 ha high fenced paddocks, 7 days ago hungry from being inexperienced in catching its own unbutchered meat .... Challenging ...

I gather this is the new "non canned" lion hunting minimums ...




I have a very good friend who has done both..several times..he has stated the canned hunts are what they are..as long as you go into it knowing that..He used a cross bow on his last canned lion hunt..

I am glad I went when I did..no way I would pay the amount they are asking for now on a wild hunt

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: Ripp]
      #362615 - 24/02/22 02:19 AM

I do wish I had now taken up an offer to hunt lion or leopard plus a buffalo plus other plains game for 14 days in the Luangwa Valley. For I think it was R 14,000, A$2,000! On a citizens hunting permit ... Though I do remember A$3,500? ... 2x clients. Each on a citizens permit, each gets a buffalo, one a leopard, one a lion. Full camp, Unimog transport, a cook, tents etc. Not 100% legal as a client hunter but wgaf ...

Even if I couldn't bring out a lion trophy at least the experience.

Maybe a SAf lion hunt with a 10-bore would be fun. Powerful but limited in range. Need to get close. Need to carry some lamb chops.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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poprivit
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: NitroX]
      #362616 - 24/02/22 03:12 AM

Mine was shot at 24 yards with my S&W500 after a three hour chase. Fenced? Well, yes. Exciting? Hell Yes!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: poprivit]
      #362745 - 26/02/22 12:16 AM

https://www.facebook.com/reel/938839233430549?fs=e&s=cl

Wild fenced lions. Not sure how long this video lasts.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: poprivit]
      #362746 - 26/02/22 12:18 AM

Quote:

Mine was shot at 24 yards with my S&W500 after a three hour chase. Fenced? Well, yes. Exciting? Hell Yes!




No judgements, can you give a description, story etc? A first hand experience. A handgun would make it close and exciting.m

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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poprivit
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: NitroX]
      #362749 - 26/02/22 03:11 AM

My fourth safari. I had taken my S&W to Zim and South Africa before. The first time, I took an old stink bull giraffe with it at 48 yards. The Hornady 500-gr bullet hit him in the second vertebrae - DRT. Sounded like a tree falling when he went down. He was down to his last set of molars and wouldn't have survived winter.

Second trip with the 500 was for a zebra and lion. The zebra never got close enough to use the 500 on, so I shot it with my Ruger #1 in 375 Ruger. Two days later we went lion hunting. Found its tracks up near the high fence. I said to myself, "this should be easy!"
Three hours later we were still chasing. Decided that the lion had been leading us in a big circle. Exited the safari truck and set off to cut the corner. The tracker was in front, I followed, and my PH made up the rear.

We came out of some trees and the tracker froze. He was looking left, so I assumed we had company over there. I turned my head and saw absolutely nothing. Zero! Then the absolutely nothing's ear twitched. No the lion wasn't 60-70 yards away. It was right in close and personal. My S&W was full of 440-gr hardcast. I set up the red dot in a hurry and touched off the trigger. First shot was too far back. Second went in the chest and stopped in the left hip.

All happened very fast. My chest shot was interesting because the PH said as I sighted up, the lion's body raised up slightly and the hind legs tensed. We paced off the shot at a bit over 23 yards.

You gotta believe the first sundowner tasted REAL good that night.

I've got both giraffe and lion photos, but not too sure how to paste them up.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: poprivit]
      #362784 - 26/02/22 11:43 PM

Thanks for relating your experience. If you enjoyed your hunt, found it exciting and worthwhile for you. It's your hunt and money.

I am of two minds.

Firstly I would do a Tanzanian or Zimbabwean, Zambian, possibly Mozambique wild free range like. 1000% more before a captive bred high fenced lion hunt. I've seen how farm bred stags act even a year later. And that fence is always an impediment to escape and fair chase hunting.

But from a conservation point of view I think the captive bred lion hunting industry may provide a better means of lion survival than in the wild. Greedy invading humans and especially goats and cattle are too great a competition with big wild cats. Tigers in India should be established into a captive breeding hunting proposition as well. We might see twice as many tigers then as currently in the wild.

Personally I doubt I will ever be able afford a true lion hunt. If a high fenced lion was longer fending for itself in the wild, able to wild up a little. The fenced enclosure larger. And using something requiring close hunting such as my 10-bore might spice it up a bit.

I am not a trophy collector but a hunter. High fenced hunts have always been dis-satisying compared to true open free range. Sometimes the high fenced hunts have been harder. The game constantly harassed.

A true open fair chase lion hunt, what a dream it would be.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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FlatTop45
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: NitroX]
      #362804 - 27/02/22 11:32 AM

Like Nitro, I also dream of taking a traditional Safari someday, even though I know those opportunities are rapidly disappearing in today’s world. Game ranch hunting seems to be taking over and for many of us, myself included, it may be the only way we will be able to have the experience of finally hunting in Africa.

Now, with that being said, most if not all of us, I believe, are against the so called “Canned Hunts”. You know, the ones where an old circus lion or tiger or maybe one from some pathetic, road-side zoo are hauled to someplace out in the country, poked and prodded with broomsticks and electric cattle prods until they are driven into a frenzy, and then released…. Usually right In front of a pack of trained catch-dogs who set upon it immediately and hold it while some asshole shoots at it from the safety of the truck….

Those types of “hunts” make all hunters and the sport of hunting itself look bad.

However, when you are speaking of hunting a fenced property, well, I think that would depend on the actual situation. As I said, I’ve never hunted in Africa, but I understand that many of the so called “Game Ranches” in South Africa and other countries are tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of acres in size. 640 acres is a square mile, so we’re potentially taking about miles and miles of land, (depending of course on whether or not it is cross-fenced and how large the pastures are). In my home state of Texas, there are many large game ranches, most under high fence. Typically, the high fences are around the perimeter or around a defined section of the property only, so I would think it’s the same in Africa. From what I have read, you can track a lion for days before you get close enough for a shot.

But, that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s been walking in a straight line the entire time….

True, no matter how big the property or pasture is, the animal is still confined within the boundaries of a fence. Even so, you’re still hunting a lion. Whether he was bred in “captivity” or not, he still has thousands of years of instinct buried within his DNA. And, whether he grew up in a cage or a fenced paddock, he still has claws and teeth and he knows how to use them. In essence, he’s still a wild animal.

For many years, Siegfried and Roy had an extremely popular stage show in Las Vegas where they used white lions and white tigers in their act. During a performance one day, one of their tigers, one that had been used in prior performances, attacked Roy Horn on stage. It grabbed him by the sleeve at first and then bit him in the neck and dragged him offstage. The attack severed his spine and caused massive blood loss and left Roy Horn disabled for the rest of his life. This was not a “wild” tiger. It was one that had been bred in captivity and had been “trained” and handled by people for years.

I remember there was a commercial for the Expedia travel site on American television recently that shows a little girl running around an airport in a tiger costume, growling and holding her hands up like the claws. Apparently, she and her father are taking a trip to a zoo to see a real tiger. They go into the big cat exhibit and the little girl, still in costume, cautiously creeps up to a glass wall as an adult tiger approaches from the other side. The scene ends with the little girl and her dad standing in front of the tiger, staring in wonder. It’s all meant to be very sweet.

Not long ago, I saw a similar video taken in one of the newer “Big Cat Experience” zoos. I can’t remember where I saw it for sure, but I’m thinking it was right here on Nitro Express Forums. Anyway, in this video, there is a little boy standing in front of the glass wall, but with his back to it. In the background behind him, there is a tiger (or maybe it was a lion) obviously watching the boy with great interest as it prepares to spring. All of a sudden, it rushes the child and slams into the glass, surprising the hell out of the kid. Luckily, the wall held. If I recall correctly, Peter Capstick wrote of a similar experience in a game park here in the USA where the animals are kept under high fence and you drive your own vehicle through the park. (I remember going to one called Lion Country Safari when I was a kid. A baboon stole one of the signal lights right off our truck!) You stay in the car with the windows up the whole time driving from paddock to paddock while you look at the animals. Anyway, Capstick wrote that a boy was walking outside one of the fenced areas when a lion charged him from cover and slammed into the fence. Again, luckily, the fence held. Had it not been for the glass wall in the first case, and the fence in the other, I’m certain both children would have been severely injured if not killed if the cats could have reached them.

So I guess my point is, bred in captivity, captive or not, a lion (or any big cat for that matter) is still a lion. A cornered animal is a dangerous animal and perhaps in a fenced situation, where the lion knows he can’t just run away to escape, he may be more inclined to fight. And, maybe, just maybe, the hunter might become the one who gets cornered….


J


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: FlatTop45]
      #362813 - 27/02/22 01:16 PM

Unfortunately by far the majority of high fenced South African properties seem to be 3000 acres or less.

The story by poprivit mentions the lion coming up to a fence corner. No judgements, a fenced hunt is what it is.

I once tried to do the same. The deer or antelope came upntona corner. " Now I have them!", I thought. But no, they sneaked through a hole under the fence ...

We have all seen lion charges on video with bubba clients on NE. The lions seem a bit clueless. At least in these videos. A lion is not a game beast. Can not be tamed. But bred in captivity, hand fed, would take a long time to wild up completely if ever.

I hunted a Zim high fenced property which another client thought was wonderful. The best hunting of his like. I felt a couple of days later, that the game didn't seem as quick to flee??? Later found out they were feeding pellets to the antelope from the back of vehicles. Our motor was a dinner gong. I decided to not hunt that sad property after one day again ... Not a challenge at all. For some guy who doesn't get off the bakkie except for hero trophy pics and collects braggin heads for the wall, it was a paradise.

Lions are not kept in the hunting areas for long, as they will cost a lot of antelope kills, all which add up to a lot of Rand.

Sorry there is NO comparison of zoo, circus lions to real true wild lions.

All is academic. I can't travel and can't afford it at the moment. Would like to tag along on one of these properties first to see. A next African safari would be for buffalo, maybe Mozambique. Free range absolutely. Otherwise plains game.

Good to dream however.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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poprivit
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: NitroX]
      #362830 - 28/02/22 03:17 AM

Almost all South African game ranches are high fence. The one where I shot the giraffe was so big that I only saw one part of the fence in 5 days of hunting. I don't know just how big was the lion property, but we chased the lion around a very large circle and only saw one corner.

And, no, the lion wasn't a worn out old beat up animal. I was told it had been on the ranch for some months.

I can't even afford a wild lion hunt, so I took what I could get.

John, you should try hunting dangerous game with a handgun ... Really fires up the senses!

If you will post some photos for me, I'll send the lion and giraffe files to you.


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Ripp
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Re: Canned lion hunt more dangerous than wild lion? [Re: NitroX]
      #362850 - 01/03/22 07:01 AM

Quote:

Thanks for relating your experience. If you enjoyed your hunt, found it exciting and worthwhile for you. It's your hunt and money.

I am of two minds.

Firstly I would do a Tanzanian or Zimbabwean, Zambian, possibly Mozambique wild free range like. 1000% more before a captive bred high fenced lion hunt. I've seen how farm bred stags act even a year later. And that fence is always an impediment to escape and fair chase hunting.

But from a conservation point of view I think the captive bred lion hunting industry may provide a better means of lion survival than in the wild. Greedy invading humans and especially goats and cattle are too great a competition with big wild cats. Tigers in India should be established into a captive breeding hunting proposition as well. We might see twice as many tigers then as currently in the wild.

Personally I doubt I will ever be able afford a true lion hunt. If a high fenced lion was longer fending for itself in the wild, able to wild up a little. The fenced enclosure larger. And using something requiring close hunting such as my 10-bore might spice it up a bit.

I am not a trophy collector but a hunter. High fenced hunts have always been dis-satisying compared to true open free range. Sometimes the high fenced hunts have been harder. The game constantly harassed.

A true open fair chase lion hunt, what a dream it would be.




Reading the responses reminded me of several things that happened on my lion hunt with Ian in Zim. But this one probably sticks out the most on this trip.

One day after checking baits we cut a reasonably fresh lion track and decided to track for a bit.. It was mid afternoon, ,we had been tracking for several hours when the lead tracker very slowly dropped down to his knees looking straight ahead in the high grass.. Directly ahead of us were 2 lionesses looking directly at us.. slightly off to the right was a younger male.. we were about 15 yards from them.. could very distinctly make out the shape of their face and see their eyes staring directly at us in the tall tan grass..It was a Mexican standoff for several minutes..when finally both lionesses got up and started walking away at about a 45 degree angle to our position.. one let out a serious snarl shortly after getting up.. was a slightly intense situation at the time..

We had a similar experience with a leopard one day as well.. also checking baits.. had one walking in while we were there.. he was above us on the hillside.. calling... ended up being a younger male.. he was a bit further however.. perhaps 30 yards or so..

This was the same trip we got charged by a tuskless cow as we were sneaking into a blind for hyena about a half hour before daylight... she finally quit charging at 8 yards..

It was a very eventful trip..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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