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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Dog Fight Starter
      #18585 - 29/08/04 07:18 AM

This one might start a fight.How do you feel about shooting dogs running deer or not while hunting & whats the favorite caliber for bad/mean dogs,For Bad dogs,Big bore to small?Here in the south we have a lot of feral dogs that run in packs and dont belong to anyone.They are throw aways and most are a sad sight to see.Many times you see one and it hasnt eaten in weeks.The news always has a pit bull killed a little child story,and you can see dobermans and pit bulls running wild down the roads & yards sometimes.Iam going to stay neutral on this one but would like your output because we hunters have to address this problem some times.Ever been bitten or chased by a mad dog in the woods?If a dog has a collar and looks to be just play chaseing the deer and the deer are healthy and moving along just fine,I dont see how a petdog/old yeller
/snoopy can run afull grown deer down/am i wrong?Dogs are mans best friend I just cant see shooting spot just because you see him in the woods.Every year I hear some one say they shot a dog with a collar on like it was something to brag about.I just dont get it sometimes.Dont a Gooddog/old yeller/snoopy have a right to walk in the woods?I know the ranchers have to shoot alot though because some dogs when they get in a pack sorta revert back to the wolf days Right?But if a few neighbors dogs/fido run deer for fun like some dogs do, want that get the deer to move?Isnt that why they hunt with dogs in the south for deer anyway?Isnt it a dogs nature to chase game?just wondering if you hunters ever see dogs in the woods too.I usually try to help one if i can and find the owner or something if it doesnt try to bite or growl & show teeth.I also have my dogs fixed if i dont want any pups.You know,they had to shoot old yeller,Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do!!!

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canada
.275 member


Reged: 09/05/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Northern Ontario Canada
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18588 - 29/08/04 09:33 AM

IN Ontrio Canada we are allowed to hunt deer,moose and bear with hounds. You must purchase a licence for your dog to run at large during the open season for game. Most hound men like their dogs more than some people. I have heard people brag about shooting dogs at that time of the year and it is most upsetting. I use tracking collars so that I can find my hounds but they can not read and sometimes follow game unto private property. Its not their fault. They are only doing what they were bred for,happily follwing game and making a lot of noise. During the fall all an animal has to do is cross water and that ends the chase,no sent no chase.If I find my dogs have entered private property I attend the land owners home and advise him. Usually after I show him the tracking system and tell him I am there to catch my dog all is ok. To shoot one of my dogs is like shooting a member of my family. I sure would not want to be around if that happened infact it is a criminal offence in Canada to shoot a dog under some condtions. I realize that there are some people that should not hunt with dogs but shooting the dog is not the answer.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18602 - 29/08/04 05:40 PM

Well it is my opinion that any feral,wild dog ,dingo cross is fair game.SHOOT ON SIGHT
Domestic dogs at large are given the oppertunity to come to me when called or whistled,however if they turn and run a texas heart shot with anything handy will do the job..

Prefered calibre ,well most times I've come across dogs that need to be shot I've been carrying either a bolt action 243 or 308...

I've only ever used dogs to hunt feral cats and my dog of choice has been the Jack Russel terrier....

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #18622 - 29/08/04 11:42 PM

In SA there are certain provisions under which a stock-owner can shoot a dog. If someone shot my dog except under those provisions they would find themselves pretty fast in court or ..

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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EricD
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Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18629 - 30/08/04 02:06 AM

Since feral dogs aren't a problem in Norway, basically all loose dogs belong to someone. If they have a collar or not.

We use dogs here in Norway for hunting birds, hare, deer and moose. Several times I've come upon a dog in our forest who's lost his way while hunting on nabouring property. Each and every time I've been able to track down the owner and have him/her pick up the dog. I know for sure that if someone shot my dog, and I was either there, or found out later who did it, that someone wouldn't end up with a court case. He or she would have an "unfortunate accident". My dog is just as much a part of my family as my wife and kid.

Erik D.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
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Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: EricD]
      #18639 - 30/08/04 04:41 AM

It's going to depend on the totality of the circumstances.

You better know the laws of the jursidiction before you shoot.

Back in my Deputy Sheriff days this problem brought one headache call after another. I was in a state that did not allow deer hunting or deer trailing with dogs.

The biggest problem was the law. It allowed Hunters in the field to who saw dogs actually attacking certain game animals to kill the dog. But if you shot a dog that was simply present in the field where game was present you were in a bunch of trouble. The law didn't apply to all game animals and no birds.

Another law allowed Owners of certain live stock or their representatives to kill dogs harrassing their stock. You could kill a dog that was attacking your sheep but not your chickens. If the owner of the dog could be identified the stock owner was allowed to collect for his loss. If the owner could not be identified the stock owner could collect replacement cost from the County Dog license fund.

I have had to sit down with more than one owner of Fifi or Fido to explain that to a sheep owner the loss of a ewe represented two lambs a year and a bag of wool for x-amount of years, so maybe that wasn't their dog dead out in that field after all.. And the Judges in the county and probably at least half of the Jury pool where some how or another connected to ranching. Where replacment cost was just the cost to buy another sheep.

From my Experience most domestic dogs just chase game for sport. The only problem is the game animal doesn't want to play. I have seen Buck deer standing surrounded by a pack of dogs head down and tongue hanging out, dogs nipping at the animal. Do you know what that would do to a pregnant doe in the spring time.

Once dogs start doing this they won't stop, its great sport. It's very difficult to break a dog of this habit unless it's caught the first time or two. Beyond that they pretty much are a lost cause.

Feral dogs. I have seen a couple. but for the most part the "wild dogs" I saw were someone's domestic dogs allowed to run at will.

Two things you need to know before you shoot a dog running loose.

1. That you have the legal right.

2. That your home owners policy will pay for your shooting Fifi or Fido.


--------------------
DD, Ret.

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AdamTayler
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Reged: 22/03/04
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Loc: B.C.
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18640 - 30/08/04 04:53 AM

Shoot feral dogs. Dogs with collars have either been dumped or have lost their way. I have had to shoot one of my dogs because he got a taste for blood and would chase anything that moved, including the horses next door. Under the livestock act, any farmer can shoot an animal that is endangering/molesting his livestock (though I hear of a few farmers who molest their own livestock ). I had to do it for liability reasons, plus my wife did not trust the dog around the kids. I did give him to a trainer first, but it was hopeless.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: DoubleD]
      #18651 - 30/08/04 09:47 AM

In reply to:

Once dogs start doing this they won't stop, its great sport. It's very difficult to break a dog of this habit unless it's caught the first time or two. Beyond that they pretty much are a lost cause.



An electric shock collar works pretty well to re-condition a dog from chasing stock or I suppose game.

***

I know of a local farmer who shoots dogs whom merely cross his paddocks. I was with them when they heard barking and rushed out to immediately shoot a dog that was NOWHERE near the stock. In factit wasn't even his property it was a neighbours. The brag any dog that cross their property is dead meat.

If I was their neighbour and they shot my dog even one of their flock would be mutton one morning.

***

Legally here a stock owner can shoot a dog harassing their stock. Not merely on their property. I have tried to shoot domestic dogs killing sheep myself.

I know of one case where another dickhead of the ilk above saw two dogs running along a country road. He immediately got his rifle and shot the two pets. There were witnesses. The owners of the dogs took him to court and he was fined $5000. I hope he lost his firearms licence for life as well for shooting illegally on a public road.

***

Dogs will roam, I once came across two dogs chasing a rabbit on my land and as they crossed in front of me, tried to shoot the rabbit with a shotgun.

Missed the rabbit - didn't want to hit the dogs - and the dogs yelped and ran away yelping, back to their master I suppose who was trespassing on my land. I hope the dog's owner didn't think I tried to shoot his dogs but on the other hand it might have discouraged him from trespassing without permission.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: NitroX]
      #18655 - 30/08/04 11:11 AM

Hey Nitrox,you hit on another odd occurance that happens from time to time and that is tresspassing hunters that get Caught!Whats up with that scallywagg crap?I have caught a couple or more fellows during the years more than not turkey hunting and they were stalking me on my land thinking i was a turkey ever time i would call they would call back and next thing i know there in my lap looking for a bird and I caught em. Do you fellows run into this same junk sometimes?Whats the worst tresspassing story you heard?I know a bunch of friends that had to draw a gun to stop a confrontation,And a lot of people think there jesse james when they hunt just because there standing there with a gun in there hands they think there back in the Wild west days?Go figure?You could actually be lost trying to find your way out of the woods and get back home and some jerk threatens to shoot you because he gotta gun in his hand and is mad cause you are on his land lost as hell?
That is some stupid crap......
I think alot of people worry to much about the wrong things and really dont give a crap about anyone or there property!!!!!!
Matter of fact we rescued this old timmer one time in some bad cold weather at dark that was as lost as you could be,
He was way way back in some wolly bugger swamp shit and he had been lost all day.We heard him yelling and called back and forth till he got out and then gave him a ride to his camp about 5 miles away!!!He probley was around 80yr.old and from another state and he said he was never going back in the woods in georgia again! Thats Lost!!!we didnt say nothing at all about him tresspassing he was shaking so bad all he kept doing was thanking us for our help.We laughed and gave him a beer and told em we was glad to help!I asked him were he was from to be lost all day and he said michigan and I said dam you are lost your in georgia now and everyone like to have died laughing so hard!They still tell that one from time to time!!! Michigan is on the other side of the united states if no one knows.....
Theres some funny stuff happen some times on the trail....

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Ingwe
.275 member


Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18657 - 30/08/04 02:40 PM

BBHunter,

Good post. We are also up to our eyeballs in Texas with feral dogs and cats. These are NOT to be confused with dogs that belong to someone. They are just that - feral, and we shoot them, dogs and cats, with no hesitation or regrets. They do a lot of damage to the wild native animals. And the feral dogs are not just in the woods - they are plentiful in Houston, too. They form packs just like wolves. I have never been attacked by feral dogs in the woods, but I have been charged more than a few times in the city by unowned rottweilers bigger than me, and had to draw my concealed handgun and kill or be killed. In fact, these are the only times I have come close to being killed or maimed by an animal. I do a lot of work in a "low income neighborhood," and it's almost like the wild west in some ways. Sometimes those big boys will come boiling out from under a house and come for you in earnest. Anyway, yes, feral dogs and cats, kill them on sight. They are bad juju. Please note that I am not talking about someone's pets or hunting hounds - just wild, unowned, feral animals.

--------------------

_________________________________________________

Learn from other people's mistakes - you can't live long enough to make them all yourself.

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: NitroX]
      #18660 - 30/08/04 04:23 PM

In reply to:

An electric shock collar works pretty well to re-condition a dog from chasing stock or I suppose game.




This is definatly usefull, and can in fact be too effective if not used carefuly on a hunting dog. It can litterally scare them away from wanting to hunt if used incorrectly. All our dogs get "Zapped" so they don't go after sheep, and this is actually a requirment if you want to use hunting dogs in many areas in Norway since the sheep farmers often don't get them in from grazing in the mountains until long after the specified "gathering date". We've found sheep that were sanding in so much snow that they would soon have died if we hadn't notify the owners. The problem was that they had reported the sheep as lost (eaten by wolves) and were going to recieve compensation from the government so they didn't really give a shit...

Back to topic; an electric shock collar can save a dogs life.

Erik D.

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Bakes
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Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: AdamTayler]
      #18662 - 30/08/04 07:42 PM

In reply to:

I have had to shoot one of my dogs because he got a taste for blood and would chase anything that moved, including the horses next door.



Not trying to start a fight Adam, but the whole taste of blood thing is a load of crap! Your dog would of had a very high prey drive. It is possible to train a dog not to chase but it takes time.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: Bakes]
      #18666 - 30/08/04 11:13 PM

When growing up in rual Ga. myself, my dad shot a dog that was killing our chikens. He put a bowl of food out, then put a .22 in his brain. We hauled it to the dump. Nobody ever claimed they were missing a dog. This dog was ferel.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: bonanza]
      #18667 - 30/08/04 11:49 PM

On shock collars.

I had the shock collar fence to keep my dogs in the yard in Montana. My dogs are rat terriers and I use them for squirrel or rabbit killing, no not hunting, killing.

My dogs knew the boundary of the fence and would not tread closer. Except my big male. If he saw a squirrel or a rabbit it didn't matter where it was he was after it. He would hit the range of the shock collar fence let out a yip and keep on going. When he was through with the critter he would come back to the fence outer perimeter and sit with his ears drooping and his head hanging and whine. That is the only time that dog ever whined and that is the only time he ever tempted that shock collar.

I started my dogs early with their training. A loud NO! means stop what ever you are doing right now. They will even reluctantly stop chasing squirrels and rabbits. They were all trained using the lunge line and choke collar. NO! BAD DOG! means go hide somewhere the Boss is getting the lunge line out for retraining.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39272
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Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: Bakes]
      #18668 - 31/08/04 12:27 AM

In reply to:

It is possible to train a dog not to chase but it takes time.



Any tips?

I used to visit a dog training website. One thing they said is to let your puppy or young dog chase rabbits so when he learns he can not catch them he will stop and let you shoot them.

What happens if your dog finds it very easy to run down rabbits? And as they are around him all day has endless opportunities when he can't be watched and trained all day?







--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: NitroX]
      #18680 - 31/08/04 03:07 AM

I don't think that is completely true. The Rat terrier I mentioned above would chase the big Montana Jack rabbits as long as he could see them, every time. If the rabbit jumped down a coulee or made a turn over the hilltop or behind the weed patch the dog would loose him. Definitely a sight trailer. He only caught those Jacks if he surprised them. That was interesting in its self since my Rat Terriers and the Montana Jack Rabbit are about the same size. He lost more than he caught.

My friend took a video of this dog jumping a Jack rabbit and chasing it to the end. The Jack took off across a wheat stubble field in a big basin. The Rabbit ran a large circle around the basin and head back to where it was jumped. The dog never lost sight of the rabbit. The chase was 4 or 5 minutes long. The rabbit intially pulled away from the dog. In the middle of the chase the dog and rabbit maintained separation, in the last part of the chase the dog can be seen closing ground. Finally the rabbit got back to the starting area and just stopped. The dog was right behind and nailed the rabbit. After the rabbit was good and dead, the dog laid down beside the rabbit and rested for about 10 minutes and went back hunting.

I do not think you could break these dogs of chasing and killing once they were allowed to do it or especially if they were trained to it. For this breed it seems to come naturally. That was part of the reason for the keeping them fenced in. If I had let them run they would have not stopped at anyones property line as long as they could find a small animal to kill. They would have become that "Feral dog" that wonders in and gets shot.

They have never been allowed to roam free becasue I'm sure they would not hesitate going to the neighbors and killing their cat or least chasing it.



--------------------
DD, Ret.

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AdamTayler
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Reged: 22/03/04
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Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: Bakes]
      #18718 - 31/08/04 03:18 PM

Absolutely, he had one of the highest prey drives I, and others, have seen in a dog. He was a lab, built like a brick shithouse, fast like a greyhound, and as stubborn as a mule. I started training on him too late and he did not have an out. When I passed him on, the trainer that was working him tried to teach him who was boss. The dog was picked up off the ground with a choke chain and he was still trying to bite. The guy showed me the scars on his legs and arms. Yes the dog propably would have come around with a great deal of training but I did not have the time, and he was not worth the money for someone else to do it.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: AdamTayler]
      #18955 - 05/09/04 04:30 AM

I gotta story about this old dog that lived in the area where I moved to one time that was the meanist looking dog you had ever seen,It looked every bit 100 percent alaskan wolf and was as black as the devil and when I saw it I commented that damn thang has got to go!
I didnt want nothing like that eating my kids!
But being the sportsman that I am I figured I would give the wolf the benefit of the doubt and see just how the wolf would let the story end and see if he was as bad as his looks.I knew he couldnt outrun no bullet.I called out to him the first time i saw him alone with no one around to see his reaction.Damn if that wasnt the sweetest ,smartest dog I ever met,She was a female dog and just the best thing we were friends from the start and i always enjoyed her company,her owners didnt take much care of her and she stayed with my lab all the time,But I really learned a lesson with her that just because a dog looks bad doesnt mean it is.She looked like a real wolf and she was mean looking,but had the heart of gold.I was glad I hadnt been narrow minded.I want to get a wolf just like her some day.I think its the way they are raised as pups.

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Bakes
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Reged: 31/01/03
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Loc: QLD
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: NitroX]
      #19009 - 06/09/04 11:27 AM

A dog will respond to anything running. If you let it chase from an early age your just creating a problem down the track as its prey drive developes. Its best to get control early, let the dog know he's not to chase but when he indicates on a rabbit give him the stay command (you have to start basic's as well)and praise him. Now I'm not a gundog trainer, thats just what I would do based on our work dogs.

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jgttechjunkie
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Reged: 20/02/04
Posts: 59
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #19028 - 06/09/04 08:25 PM

One starts early teaching bird dogs (pointers) the command WHOA. Most people I know with this type of dog do not let them run freely, they are either under control or in a kennel. Are normally territorial farm dogs who stray onto a neighbor's property the problem or more urban guard dog breeds and mutts that have (or had) irresponsible owners?
Feral dogs can represent a danger and should be dealt with, but it seems to me it is better to do it in an organized way rather than relying on a hunter to make a spur of the moment decision on a particular animal.

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atkinson6
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Loc: Idaho
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: jgttechjunkie]
      #19383 - 23/09/04 08:54 AM

Any cur or town dog chasing deer needs to be shot, he is a preditor and he will also go after livestock...Pet need to be attended by owners...Dogs tend to pack and when they pack they are killers.

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Siskiyous6
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Reged: 21/11/04
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Loc: Del Norte COunty, CA
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: atkinson6]
      #21122 - 22/11/04 05:22 PM

The reason I got my first gun was because pet dogs were packing up and killing our cows. But, even when dogs just run cows they are killing the rancher. And, even if they are just running game, they kill the game.

In my county dogs are supposed to be on a leash or under the owners control. Hounds are legal for hunting bear, and the use of a single dog to hunt deer is also. I won't shot single dogs, wearing collars, in the woods during hunting season.

But, uncontrolled feral dogs, and loose dogs during the rest of the year are unacceptable.

Once, far from home, I was deer hunting. Three of the most starved looking dogs I ever saw came up to my truck growling while I cooked my breakfast. I did them all a favor.

Predators seem to have gotten some kind of sacred cow status here in the USA. We might want to contemplate on the problems associated with that feeling a little more.

--------------------
Pass it on!

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vapodog
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Reged: 28/12/04
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Loc: Nebraska USA
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: Siskiyous6]
      #22795 - 29/12/04 10:22 AM

In the State of Minnesota where hunting deer with dogs is prohibited, the law states:
Any hunter may and any conservation officer must attempt to kill any dog seen chasing a deer during the deer-gun hunting season". Most dog owners lock their dog up during the season.

Here in Nebraska it's legal to use dogs to hunt deer although I've never seen anyone do it.

If we see a dog harassing any wildlife here and it has no collar (hense no proof of vacination) we practice the SSS rule...(shoot,shovel,and shutup)

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luv2safari
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Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: vapodog]
      #22815 - 29/12/04 03:12 PM

It is too damned bad that there isn't the same reception given the feral horse, AKA "wild horse"! Those eating machines destroy many thousands of acres of wildlife habitat here in the West every year.

In other words, they are killing deer...through starvation and reduced wintering ranges. AND, we can't even chase them out of our gardens without violating Federal laws. Sometimes I think the world turned upside-down when I wasn't watching.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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slammer6delta
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Reged: 31/12/04
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Loc: KY
Re: Dog Fight Starter [Re: EricD]
      #22901 - 31/12/04 05:59 AM

I dont believe in mis treating dogs, but saying that someone is going to have an unfortunate accident over a damn dog is going a little to far.

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