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NitroXAdministrator
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Are Iron Sights Obsolete?
      #380510 - 01/11/23 01:54 AM

https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/iron-sights-obsolete-hunting/

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szihn
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380521 - 01/11/23 02:00 PM

Nope.
I use irons probably about 980% of the time for my hunts.
I bring home the meat most times too, so it doesn't seem to hurt me at all.


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DarylS
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: szihn]
      #380522 - 01/11/23 02:09 PM

That's all my 1886 .45/70, my 1876 .50/95 and all my muzzleloaders have.

I placed in the top 10 of a BP ctg. match at Rendezvous with my 14 bore rifle, but they were only shooting to 300yards that year.

That was my moose rifle for a few years - it STAGGERS them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: DarylS]
      #380526 - 01/11/23 06:06 PM

A lot of traditional double rifles still of course use open sights.

Handguns are also pretty much standard with open sights.

Shotguns still have a front head.

If optics are so essential, why don't most shotguns have a red dot sight?

One thing I like about the BGRC competitions is the use of open sights. Optics are penalised when permitted, in most but a few competitions. There is an argument currently that there is a need to attract younger members and competitors, and scopes shouldn't be penalised else those with youthful better eyes won't compete? I think it possibly changes the BGRC into a club originally designed to celebrate vintage rifles, into another ho hum paper target shooting comps. A lot won't have a scope 3x power or less anyway. A 16x variable is needed nowadays!

Having said that, unless I get in more practice I was thinking next time I'll use my scopes. Getting a score penalty is better than missing the longer range - 100 yards - targets completely too many times. More proactive, ammo I've used before, and enough rounds, might be a bigger improvement though.

I like the fact open sights are required. Not sure just adding a scope will attract youthful shooters.i think more of the "dangerous game" adhoc shoots, especially "practical" action shoots, and charging, and running targets would be far more attractive. These are any sights already. \

All of my double rifles have open sights. Except the Tikka/Valmet U/O with its near useless tiny flip up rear sight. Even the combination barrels have a low powered scope. My military bolt actions all gave open sights. My Martinis. A Lithgow .22 RF single shot. The safecquerns never used.

I think it should be mandatory for any new shooter to learn using open sights, not start with optics. IMO. Of course lesser eyesight forces some to for go open sights.

When younger I could shoot very well with my open sights. With good eyesight it merely a skill to learn.

No doubt the smartphone glued Creedmoor obsessed generation disagrees.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380528 - 01/11/23 07:34 PM

In the past I shoot often game with rifles only equipped with iron sights, unfortunately as I get older and now wear glasses, I have great difficulty shooting accurately with such sights. A diopter has made things easier, but I only have one hunting rifle that is equipped with it, and besides, such sights are not common among European hunters.

When it comes to shoot at longer range or when you have to shoot under poor conditions, for example under poor light conditions or in the dense bush, a scope is already an advantage and should no longer be missed nowadays. That's why nowadays you should not work without the technology if this is available. For these reasons I also have a scope on my rifles caliber 460 WBY-Magnum and 500 Schüler. It's about hunting and shooting game under the best conditions, and not just about demonstrating your skills.

As far as the use of weapons without iron sights is concerned, as it is very often or almost exclusively the case nowadays, hunters have to consider that carefully. If, under special circumstances, you need to shoot game at short range, iron sights are often very advantageous. For these reasons, it is a must for a hunter in Africa to always use a weapon that also has iron sights, be it in all cases when hunting big game, but even if you are just hunting plain game, because you can also encounter something dangerous. Defending yourself against an attack without iron sights is a very uncertain and dangerous matter.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380529 - 01/11/23 09:24 PM

Quote:



When it comes to shoot at longer range or when you have to shoot under poor conditions, for example under poor light conditions or in the dense bush, a scope is already an advantage and should no longer be missed nowadays. That's why nowadays you should not work without the technology if this is available. For these reasons I also have a scope on my rifles caliber 460 WBY-Magnum and 500 Schüler. It's about hunting and shooting game under the best conditions, and not just about demonstrating your skills.

As far as the use of weapons without iron sights is concerned, as it is very often or almost exclusively the case nowadays, hunters have to consider that carefully. If, under special circumstances, you need to shoot game at short range, iron sights are often very advantageous. For these reasons, it is a must for a hunter in Africa to always use a weapon that also has iron sights, be it in all cases when hunting big game, but even if you are just hunting plain game, because you can also encounter something dangerous. Defending yourself against an attack without iron sights is a very uncertain and dangerous matter.




A reason good QD mounts are standard for most scoped DG rifles.

I question how many people with scoped DG rifles have ever used the rifle's open sights?

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380532 - 02/11/23 12:40 AM

I shot a few of DG using only the open sights, but it rarely happened.

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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380534 - 02/11/23 04:48 AM

An alternative is the diopter for people who can no longer see so well.

In this case a Rigby-style Diopter on my rifle caliber 500 Schüler.



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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380536 - 02/11/23 05:10 AM

Quote:

..

A reason good QD mounts are standard for most scoped DG rifles.

...




As far as a good scope mount is concerned, on the scope of my rifle caliber 500 Schüler you can see the traces of what due to the recoil happens when a scope is not particularly solidly anchored. The gunsmith built the weapon very nicely, but when it came to scope, he did not take a few practical points into account. A few tries were necessary on my part and three scope mounts before I found the right one.



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sharps4590
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380537 - 02/11/23 05:23 AM

I still use open sights just about exclusively, at 70 years old and with corrective lenses. I have one, centerfire rifle with a scope on it just because I had the scope and that was the only rifle I had with bases and rings.

I can still shoot 2 inch groups with revolvers/pistols at 25 yards.
I can still shoot 1 inch groups with open sighted rifles at 50 yards. (just did, two days ago)
With aperture sights 2 inches at 100 yards is pretty normal.

All with accurate firearms, benched and bagged, obviously.

I haven't shot a big game animal with a scoped rifle in over 30 years.

When I can no longer see to use open sights, I'll go to a scope.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: sharps4590]
      #380538 - 02/11/23 05:57 AM

As I wrote above, it's not just about the eyesight, but that a rifle scope allows shots under conditions that are not possible with open sights. We don't need to talk about shooting at longer range, but a rifle scope is also of great help when there are poor light or visibility conditions. At night you need a scope in all cases, but even in dense bushes or forests a shot can be placed much better with that than with open sights. With a scope you can focus through the dense vegetation than looking at a green wall through the open sights. This is my personal experience, especially when it comes to buffalo hunting. I could not have shot under good conditions two thirds of my buffalos with open sights.

As far as hunting at night is concerned, we often do that in Europe when we hunt wild boars, but in Africa it can also happen under special conditions. I shot an elephant, a crop raider in the middle of the night, and something like that was only possible with an optic. That was the first thing the PH asked me, if I had with me a rifle with a scope.

Edited by grandveneur (02/11/23 06:17 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380539 - 02/11/23 09:21 AM

Everything you say is correct, grandveneur, however I hold same as John, new shooters should be taught to shoot open sights - first.
An air rifle is very good for this 'early' teaching.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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sharps4590
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: DarylS]
      #380541 - 02/11/23 10:45 AM

Hunt at night here and you'll end up in jail.

I never have taken questionable shots, with or without a scope. One could call me very patient and particular. As with szihn, the game always comes home whether flintlock, single shot, double rifle or repeater.

You hunt with a scope, fine, I'm glad for you. Your wants apparently warrant using a scope vastly more than mine. I neither need nor want one, not yet. I used to use one but, it was too easy. Shots that could easily be made with a scope were often impossible with open or aperture sights and, that's fine with me, I don't hunt for "easy", I hunt for the challenge. I WANT it difficult, it's vastly more rewarding, for me. I simply don't take those shots or ponder them later. If it's too dark for open sights I wait till later in the day or don't go. If it's evening, I simply walk back to my house. Tomorrow's another day and if I'm here, great. If not, I bet Heaven is even better than I imagine!!

My days of travelling to hunt are over. Small game and whitetail here on our property satisfy any urges I have to kill something or, there's wild boar down the road a piece.

I might have been on my last hunt. The fire burns pretty dim these days but, for the better part of 60 years it was nearly all consuming.

I agree with Daryl and others, new shooters should become proficient with open sights before ever being allowed a scope and, learning with an open sighted flintlock would be better yet. They would REALLY learn how to shoot.

So no, they aren't obsolete. People simply don't take the time to learn to use them, become proficient with them and STAY proficient with them. Were I still shooting 1000 yards Hi Power competitively I'd assuredly use a scope. For hunting, not yet.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

Edited by sharps4590 (02/11/23 10:50 AM)


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fjrdoc
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: sharps4590]
      #380542 - 02/11/23 12:40 PM

Well put sharps. We are kindred spirits.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: fjrdoc]
      #380544 - 02/11/23 02:45 PM

At the eye doc right now. I only have reading glasses and rarely use them. Last time 6-6 or 20-20 vision. Hopefully still.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380546 - 02/11/23 05:24 PM

Quote:

At the eye doc right now. I only have reading glasses and rarely use them. Last time 6-6 or 20-20 vision. Hopefully still.




Still good. Eighteen months before the next appointment.

Acscooevos certainly useful for lesser light, dawn, dusk, night, Shooting in a foresr or a herd, a scope is very useful.

Lots of different people, lots of different hunting scenarios, places, types of game. I think hunting a sambar is far different to stand hunting a whitetail. Or hunting a boar from a hochsitz at midnight.

Of course asking this question on the NE forums gets very different answers than some plastic rifle "tactical" forum or one saturated with Creedmoor buyers.

On some of those forums, the guys probably don't know how to use open sights.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: DarylS]
      #380548 - 02/11/23 05:44 PM

Quote:

Everything you say is correct, grandveneur, however I hold same as John, new shooters should be taught to shoot open sights - first.
An air rifle is very good for this 'early' teaching.




I absolutely agree with that.


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Rule303
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380549 - 02/11/23 05:52 PM

I still use open and peep sights but nowhere near as I use to, mainly due to aging eyes. I have used scopes for many years and yes in low light, distance or in some vegetation they are an advantage. Also with ageing eyes I find I am using 4 and 6 power settings for 200mt or longer shots more. Never really used 4 power for much. Just think 4 power makes something at 400mts look like it is at 100mts.

I agree with John, Daryl and others that shooters should learn to use and become proficient with open sights first. Then learn to use scopes.


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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: sharps4590]
      #380551 - 02/11/23 06:37 PM

As far as hunting at night is concerned, it has become a must in our countries due to the nuisance that wild boars represent. In some areas we even have permission to hunt with light sources and even use light amplifiers. Nobody goes to the jail there, rather you have problems if you don't follow the authorities prescribed shooting plan of wild boars.

It is absolutely true that you learn to shoot first by practicing with air rifles or small-caliber weapons and using open sights. Whether one should also practice with muzzle-loaders is open to debate.

Hunting is not just shooting at game with anything, but killing wild animals in order to prey on them, doing so as perfectly and, in particular, with as little agony as possible. To do this, we should use the best technology available to us today and not use tools that come from past times. When hunting, we should not play but work, and this is always done with the best tools available. I don't need to write what I think about hunting with bow and arrows, crossbow or muzzle loaders.

The same applies to some extent when shooting with open sights by hunting. There are certainly hunts where something like this is perfekt. I am thinking of driven hunts or, to some extent, big game hunting if the distances and the field allow it, but you should not force it. If things get difficult, modern technology should be used. The game is a creature and not our toy.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380552 - 02/11/23 07:42 PM

Hunting is a sport not work.

Fair chase is about limiting oneself to provide a challenge and give the prey some chance of escape.

Hunting may also be part of wildlife population management.

Professional hunting, commercial hunting is a different thing.

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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380553 - 02/11/23 07:50 PM

Quote:



Hunting is a sport not work.

...




We have already discussed this on several forums, taking into account that in our countries, especially Germany, it is not easy to become a hunter.

We have come to the conclusion that hunting can be a passion, like a work can also be, but neither a hobby nor a sport.


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Bindi2
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380557 - 02/11/23 10:06 PM


Open sights are not the way to go for accuracy. Having done the trip from open to peep to scope to red dot to thermal. In pistols, rifles and shotties.
Practice is the only way with more practice on top of more practice.
Alot of hunting sporter firearms come without sights of any sort.
F Class shooters have a saying to the TR peep sight shooters you aim for the barn door we pick the lock through the key hole.


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DarylS
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380560 - 03/11/23 03:30 AM

Quote:

At the eye doc right now. I only have reading glasses and rarely use them. Last time 6-6 or 20-20 vision. Hopefully still.




I taped my daughter's rifle's scope at 4X. She then proceeded to shoot a 5 shot, 1 1/2" group at 100 meters elbow resting on the bench, no other rest. No bags. The rifle shot a 1 1/2", 5 shot group for me, using the BR and sand bags. LOL She doesn't need glasses.

From age 42, until just 10 or 11 years ago, just over age 61, my vision was correctable to 20-20.

The last 3 times I have had testing and got glasses, it was correctable to 20-15, which is a LOT better.

Good luck with your appointment.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #380571 - 03/11/23 08:25 AM

Post deleted by grandveneur

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Bindi2
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380572 - 03/11/23 01:26 PM

With enough kinetic energy and Hydro shock the accuracy issue is not so important. 1oz to 1.5oz of lead doing 2,000 to 2500 FPS pushes most animals backwards no matter what speed they are doing.

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