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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Unknown caliber/mm hammer drilling
      #163147 - 01/07/10 08:12 AM

Helping a friend look at a hammer driling he has,he doesnt know the rifle caliber. I broke it down and checked the bottom of the rifle chamber,this is what I found as well as "G" Gewehr proofs.
118.35
1.06
111
these where in the proper area for the rifle round size,I assume the"111" is first month 1911. The "point" after the 1 in the second line was VERY faint so it may not have been one? The bore muzzle did not accept a 9MM pistol round all the way to the brass,almost to the brass,maybe a 16th of an inch from the brass. when I looked in the chamber it looked like there was no "shoulder" machined in like it is a strait cased round.I want to say 9.3x72 MM but wouldnt it be stamped as so on the chamber? And accept the 9MM pistol round completely?? Gun is not maker marked,assume it to be a "Guild" piece. ANY ideas guys?? Please ask questions and I will try to answer! VERY nice condition gun that wants to be shot! Kevin.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26631
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Unknown caliber/mm hammer drilling [Re: heers68]
      #163158 - 01/07/10 12:10 PM

Cerosafe cast the chamber, then refer to popular known pubilications for the round. Be sure to follow the time instructions with cerosafe, as to when to remove it, and when to measure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1779
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Unknown caliber/mm hammer drilling [Re: DarylS]
      #163197 - 02/07/10 04:39 AM

Rifle calibers were not marked clearly on the old German rifles, so some knowledge is asked for. Let's interpret the numbers: "111" is a ledger number for the month of proof. As these were only used by the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse, your drilling was made and proofed in that town, about 5 miles north of Suhl but at that time in another German state. "1.06" is the date of proof, January 1906. "118.35" is a gauge number like those used on shotgun bores up until now.These old-fashioned gauge number were used by the Z-M proofhouse up to about 1910. Suhl to 1912. Then they were replaced by millimeter numbers like "8.8". 118.35 tells us the bore or land (Not groove or bullet!) was larger than 8.64mm = .340" at the proofhouse, but smaller than the next gauge #, 108.49 = 8.89mm = .350". Small wonder a .355" 9mm Luger bullet does not enter the muzzle. A gauge # 118.35 is perfectly okay for the 9.3x72R, originally a blackpowder cartridge with very deep grooves designed for lead bullets. Today's minimum dimensions are bore: 8.75mm = .344", groove 9.25mm = .364".
BTW the term "guild gun" is an American invention, born out of ignorance on how the European guntrade worked! These guns were made by individual makers, even "name" ones like Sauer, the Merkels, Meffert, for the trade. Marking them with an adress was left to the country gunsmith who retailed them. Often those retailers did not bother to spend time or money on such marking, hence the many noname German guns.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: Unknown caliber/mm hammer drilling [Re: kuduae]
      #163199 - 02/07/10 05:49 AM

WOW!! GREAT info guys! Kuduae,you have a wealth of knowledge!! Kevin.

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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Unknown caliber/mm hammer drilling [Re: heers68]
      #163201 - 02/07/10 07:13 AM

I've also seen info that suggested that the proofhouse at Suhl also made the transition to the "mm" designation circa 1910 but it's only a couple years difference. The proofhouse at Suhl(1923 effective date) may have dated a few prior to 1911, but I think it was more common at the Zella-Mehlis facility. The plug gauge stampe "118.35" is typical for the 360 BPE based series of which 9.3x72 is also included. Like Axel notes there isn't such an animal as a "guild gun" but only trade guns. Suhl, and the Zella-Mehlis area, was one big gunshop with individual craftsmen performing a specific tast, many times the same task as their forefathers.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

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