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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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nitro450exp
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Loc: Michigan, USA

Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ?
#161383 - 03/06/10 10:19 PM

Hello,

Any thoughts on putting an overshot card (10 ga.) on top of a slug, to keep it in the brass shell.
I am using Magtech 2.5" brass shells, powder, 2x cards, wad, card, wad, 2x cards, slug (1 1/4 oz) then crimping on the top band of the slug.
My problem is the slug is sized to 0.726" the brass is 0.755" at the mouth.
So I am having to crimp the **** out of the brass to keep the slug in.
I just picked up some 10 ga. overshot cards and was planning to use one of these on top of the slug and less crimp to hold the card / slug in.
Or even no crimp, card is pretty tight in the case mouth, maybe a little elmer's.

Any thoughts, experience ?

My one concern is the slug not staying centered in the case, accuracy ?
My next concern is the card in front of the slug, obstruction ?
My last concern is the card in front of the slug, accuracy ?

Thanks
Nitro
__________________
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
DRSS
Whomper's Club
BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
470 NE DR
45-70 DR
12 ga Paradox
450 NE SR

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: nitro450exp]
#161395 - 03/06/10 11:58 PM

Nitro - sounds to me as if you should be using plastic or paper cases for a better bullet fit. I know brass is nice to use, but that's a lot of excess space on the sides.
With a wad over the slug, I would be concerned about accuracy - not an obstruction if it is in contact.

What about cleaning the brass as well as you can then spin cleaned steel wool inside the cases. Tin the inside of the brass cases, then solder tinned & coiled .010" to .012" brass sheet inside to increase the thickness of the case (full length), in a similar manner that paper tubes were used to reduce the capacity of some military BP brass. That would be a permanent 'fix' to the fit problem.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: DarylS]
#161396 - 04/06/10 12:27 AM

Dear Daryl S,

As you may remember, I chose the brass because they can be loaded with an RCBS die in my rockchuker press.
Plastic will require a new press and roll crimper, etc.
I just did not want to spend the money.

I will have to try it and see if accuracy is an issue.

The paper / carboard lining sounds interesting, I assume you make a cardboard tube and insert it into the brass, How do you secure it ? Do you rely on the crimp to keep the tube in place ?
How often do you have to replace the tube ?
I will have to get new cards and wads since everything I have is 11 ga and 10 ga.
If the tube reduces to 12 ga diameter I could use plastic wads.
I wonder what pressure will do ?

I may have to do more research.

Thanks for the input.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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CptCurl
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: nitro450exp]
#161397 - 04/06/10 01:03 AM

I must agree with Daryl.

Dimensions of the brass case will make success impossible.

You can buy a Lee shotshell loader for very little, and roll crimpers are available pretty cheap. This is the better solution. The brass case is too large inside.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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CptCurl
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: CptCurl]
#161398 - 04/06/10 01:06 AM

On second thought, you probably wouldn't need the Lee shotshell loader. You can still use your RCBS dies with paper or plastic. You just need the roll crimper, which is no problem. Here is your source:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/departments.asp?dept=213

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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tinker
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: CptCurl]
#161399 - 04/06/10 01:32 AM

That magtech brass is just wrong for what you're doing.
Either go paper/plastic or have RockyMountain Cartridge make you proper brass for your gun.

Don't let a press decide for you that you need to run the wrong components for your gun.

What feature of your tooling excludes paper/plastic hulls from the process?

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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nitro450exp
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: CptCurl]
#161400 - 04/06/10 01:43 AM

Cpt Curl,

The RCBS cowboy die is used to resize the full length of the brass case.
But in reality it actually only sizes the last 1/4" above the rim.
I assume it is set to a standard for diameter of the case for a 12 ga, 0.813" above the rim.
The outer diameter of brass and plastic cases should be the same, right !
So I should be able to resize paper or plastic using the same die.
The only other issue is decaping and repriming with the 209 primers, any ideas.

The roll crimper will need to be modified for RB and Hammer head type slugs.
Milled or bored out.

Maybe a paper hull with a paradox or stab crimp is better.
Can you get paper hulls still ?

Any load data for paper or plastic with a 1 1/4 oz hammerhead slug or 0.735" RB ?

Thanks
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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lancaster
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: nitro450exp]
#161402 - 04/06/10 02:20 AM

I dont think its a good idea to have a card before a slug when it goes into the barrel.
sometimes, something is maybe coming together on the bad side of life.
I melt paraffin and fix slugs with this and a small paint brush. believe paraffin is also soft enough when goes into in the choke bore.
you can crimp magtech brass but I recommend to anneal the case mouth because its to hard and will split most times with the first shot.
have the old RCBS 12 ga reloading die set they dont make anymore and it works fine

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (04/06/10 02:21 AM)

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CptCurl
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: nitro450exp]
#161471 - 04/06/10 10:29 PM

Quote:

The outer diameter of brass and plastic cases should be the same, right !

Absolutely.

Quote:

So I should be able to resize paper or plastic using the same die.

Yes, that was my point above.

Quote:

The only other issue is decaping and repriming with the 209 primers, any ideas.

They are easily knocked out with a punch that will fit through the flash hole. A new primer can be seated using a dowel rod to push the case onto the primer set on a flat surface. No problem at all.

Quote:

The roll crimper will need to be modified for RB and Hammer head type slugs.
Milled or bored out.

They already come that way.

Quote:

Maybe a paper hull with a paradox or stab crimp is better.
Can you get paper hulls still ?

Yes, Ballistic Products sells Federal paper hulls once fired. I bought a great big box full of them. Look on their website. I think you will like a round ball set with a roll crimp. It makes a great looking shell. That's the way they did it in "days of old".

Quote:

Any load data for paper or plastic with a 1 1/4 oz hammerhead slug or 0.735" RB ?

Get the Lyman manual and use data for 1 1/4 oz shot loads. Look for lighter loads.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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nitro450exp
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Loc: Michigan, USA

Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: CptCurl]
#161477 - 05/06/10 12:10 AM

Cpt,

Thanks for the responses.
BP Inc shipment on it's way, paper hulls and wads.
I bought the pre primed new hulls and will see how they work.

Will keep you posted.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: nitro450exp]
#161531 - 06/06/10 12:19 AM

What Curl means by 'lighter' loads is those loads that produce low pressure. Look for loads with the same weight projectile that produce between 7,00LUP and 8,500 units of pressure. (low in whichever they use). Then, you can go from there in your own load development, depending on the gun. This is how I developed my data so many years ago in the double shotgun, I converted into a smooth double rifle.(smoothbore, rifle sights).

Typically, Blue Dot, Herco, Unique, 800X, SR7625 and SR4756 are used. there are Hodgdon slow powders are well - Longshot has a great deal of potential.

Of course, this is all for smokeless guns.

Oh yeah - one other thing, Lyman used to make roll crimpers. Anyone with a lathe should be able to make one in about 30 min. or less, given the right sized material. The Lyman roll crimpers were held in the jaws of a drill press. I suspect a hand drill would also work - 3/8" jaws. The addition of wax helps seal and form paper case roll crimps.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (06/06/10 12:22 AM)

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CptCurl
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: DarylS]
#161534 - 06/06/10 12:38 AM

The roll crimpers sold by Ballistic Products are basically the same as what Lyman used to sell (maybe still does).

Here's the demo from the Ballistic Prodcuts website: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/rollcrimp/rollcrimp.mpg

It does a good job. Here's a photo of some 10ga. 2 7/8" shotshells I loaded several years ago using a BP roll crimper. These are plastic shells that I cut to length. I used my drill press rather than a hand drill.

For 12ga. I have an old hand roll crimper that does just fine.

Roll crimping is not difficult at all.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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tinker
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: CptCurl]
#161535 - 06/06/10 01:21 AM

450-

It's good to see you steering on to the right track.
Curl is right, roll crimps are easier than falling down - and any old antique ebay hand-tool will be enough to do the job.
The BP tool should give you good results.

On loading, won't you consider running good old fashioned Goex 2F powder?
It's very very consistent, gives excellent velocities, it's very easy to load, and it cleans up with plain cold tap water.

You owe it to yourself to give it a shot with these loads you're working on.
After all, you DO consider yourself a member of the "Whomper's Club" don't you..?

;-)

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: tinker]
#161599 - 07/06/10 12:31 AM

Too- you could also use a slightly smaller ball and go with a cloth patch. Lubed with Neetsfoot oil, Mink oil or other concoction, they can easily take up space. Now why didn't I think of that before - in this thead?
These are Magtec cases for my 2 1/2" 13 bore striaght rifled barrel on my 16 bore Husky. The cloth patched and undersized balls are more accurate than those that engrave, shoot cleaner and are easily loaded with a simple crimp.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (27/07/10 09:05 PM)

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nitro450exp
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: DarylS]
#161783 - 10/06/10 01:14 AM

Hello All,

See link below for latest, I now have enough component to do some more trials.
Will let you know the results, but it will be a while, June is about to get busy.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=161403&an=0&page=0#Post161403

Regards
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Re: Overshot card on top of full bore slug in brass case ? [Re: nitro450exp]
#164930 - 24/07/10 11:56 PM

Further note - the new "Handloader" magazine has an article on loading BP (and smokeless) slug and shot loads in shotshells of brass, plastic and paper for normal 2 3/4" and 3" guns, along with the use of the necesary oversized wads along with the results. Powders used were Unique, Blue Dot and SR4756, which would be my choice. Herco can be substituted for Unique, but is a mite slower burning - by about 2 gr. is all.

He didn't use round balls, but did use the Lyman 525gr. slug (pure lead) and some other slugs as well that had attached wad columns. I've a bunch of Lyman slugs for testing which weigh 506gr. in WW alloy, given to me by a friend in Alberta. Inside red WW wads, they shoot well and can easily be driven to 1,500fps with smokeless.

Interstingly enough, the BP loads with oversized wads in brass cases developed 4 and 4 1/2 dram velocities, when only using 3 drams - GOEX.

Curl - your ammo looks like factory - well done. I can see I'll have to get busy and make a roll crimper for my stuff. I expect the crimper, driven by a drill press, will also make a nice crimp tool for RB loads and brass cases. The cases will need lube around the outside edge, of course, to prevent galling.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (25/07/10 03:16 AM)

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