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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
OK so you guys have convinced me !
      #153955 - 17/02/10 08:50 AM

I put a set of extended rifled choke tubes in my IZH 43 12ga SXS.
I have monted a quarter rib and front sight base.
I have Dakota express fixed leaf rear and Marbles green fibre optic front.

I played with sabots from a few manufacturers, with mixed results.
I did not want to get into shotshell reloading, but you have convinced me.

I will be ordering the cowboy 12 ga RCBS die and shell holder.
I will also be getting some Magtech brass hulls.
After I measure the choke tubes I will order round balls, I won't be casting my own.

So I have a few questions for you guy's with a hell of alot more experience than me.
Will plastic wads fit inside the brass shells or do I have to use fibre ?
Some relaoding staring points or a manual for paradox ball reloading ?
I want to use modern powder not Black.
What else do I need ?
I have Graeme's 2nd and 3rd editions, I will need to look at them tonight.
Is the 2 1/2" brass hulls in a 2 3/4" chamber an issue ?


Thanks in advance.

Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26620
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: OK so you guys have convinced me ! [Re: nitro450exp]
      #153968 - 17/02/10 11:30 AM

Congratulations on the all-out decision to try round balls - with a slight roll crimp over the ball, I think the 2 1/2" - actually 2.4", will probably do just fine. I use straight walled plastic for my 12 bore, ball loads, which shoot well in the .714" bored (.724" groove) Mosberg pump. I used a cut-off steel shot wad over the powder. The top surface where I cut off the fingers had a nice cup shape, while the bottom cup against the powder had a squarish cup. Seems to me, ai had to add a 1/2" and card wad beneath that cup, rather than using the gas check off another wad.

The interior capacity if the brass is considerably more than plastci due to thinner walls.

Plastic wads will most likely be too small as I have to use 14 bore wads just to fill 16 bore MagTec cases.

Please don't use the phoney black powders. They contain chlorates which are corrosive - 17% of the charge, compared to corrosive primers of years gone by in which the chlorate, making them corrosive, was miniscule instead.

You can use data from Lyman's shotshell loading books - pick the ones that produce low pressure and reduce a few gr. to start. I plich the lowest charge they list, which is usually for a one piece tight plastic wad, then develope my own data from that - or - I pick a shotshell load for similar weight in shot and go from there. I use SR7625 and SR4756 mostly, but have also used Herco which is just slightly slower than Unique.

A ball diameter that is just barely smaller than the choked section will be a good place to start. "Track of the Wolf" sells balls in many different sizes, in 25-count bags. they will be pure lead. In my own 12 bore with .725" bores, a .684" ball was very accurate due to the cupped wad beneath it, holding it centred in the bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: OK so you guys have convinced me ! [Re: DarylS]
      #153980 - 17/02/10 12:11 PM

Daryl

Is a 10 ga wad too big for a brass 12 ga case ?
Once I measure my choke tubes, grooves and lands, should my ball be same size or slighly bigger,
for example if Lands are .725 and grooves are .730 should RB be .731 ?
Your experience would be appreciated.
What size paper wad fits inside the brass cases ?
If you have the answers great if not no big deal, if I have the chance to order everything,
in one shot and save on shipping it would be appreciated.
If not I an measure the brass once I get it, and then order the rest of the stuff.
Once I know my RB size any suggestions on where to order them ? (and wads, cards etc)

Thanks
Let the adventures begin.

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: OK so you guys have convinced me ! [Re: nitro450exp]
      #153984 - 17/02/10 12:31 PM

You can get 11 gauge wads and cards from black powder suppliers. Those are about right for the inside of the 12 gauage MagTec shells.

--------------------
~

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: OK so you guys have convinced me ! [Re: Grenadier]
      #154056 - 18/02/10 12:04 AM

I measured my rifled choke tubes, the best I could.
They appear to be 0.730 in the grooves and ~ 0.715 on the lands (Really difficult to measure)
I feel relatively confident in the 0.730 measurement, the choke maker was able to confirm the 0.730
but could not give me any other measurements: " In 20 years we have never been asked this question"
I tried explaining that I was planning on using RB, well that just blew there minds.
"Why don't you just shoot sabots or bought ammo" some people don't get it.

So if I get it ! The concept it to seal the RB going down the barrel with a wad (Plastic or fibre)
have it spaced in the shell so the crimp holds it in, Have the RB be of sufficient diameter that the choke rifling engraves it and spins it, but without any excess constriction.
And voila you have a RB paradox bambi slayer.

Any benifit to using the paradox pointed bullits with 2 driving bands ?

Thanks for answering my questions so far.
I will take any advice for sources for any and all components.

Thanks!

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: OK so you guys have convinced me ! [Re: nitro450exp]
      #157168 - 23/03/10 02:06 AM

Range report.

So I shot some soft RB and some soft 1 1/4 oz slugs.
Brass Magtech hulls, 20 gr 700x, nitro card, lubed wad, card, wad, card, wad, slug, crimp.
Had to put a hevy crimp to hold the slug and center it.
Slug size 0.730", Bore on the gun 0.727" R and 0.726" L Barrels, rifled choke 0.724" lands and 0.730" grooves.
Covering the 1.5" dot on the target with the bead at 55yds (laser ranged) R barrel 4" low of PoA
Left 1" high and 2" wide spread.
Friend shot also and group of 4 opened up to 8" Vert and 3" Horiz.
Shot the 1 3/8 oz soft slugs also, about the same result.
I only had sample quantities of the slugs and balls, so I was just making sure I did not have any pressure issues and just playng with the wad column to get things figured out.
Positive start with potential, ordered more slugs and ball today.
Will be here in a few days.
Will post a second report soon.

Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26620
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: OK so you guys have convinced me ! [Re: nitro450exp]
      #157258 - 24/03/10 07:07 AM

Sorry guys - I missed this trhead for a few days(weeks?).

I'm using 14 bore wads in a 16 bore DB Hammered Husky of 1898 vintage with shot loads using MagTec brass. The gun is actually chambered for paper hulls for the shot barrel and brass for the rifled 13 bore tube, which fits circle-fly wads OK.(the chambers are identical, btw. The 14 bore wads are necessary in the 16 bore shot barrel to take up the space in the brass hulls - or, I can use plastics as the chamber is actually 68mm long, without any undue pressure.

I would not worry about using 10 bore wads in the 12 bore magtec cases, but would be on the lookout for paper hulls to allow the use of normal wads. As with any loading, start conservatively watching for any pressure signs.

The primers used in shotgun are usually good for showing this. Pistol primers (used in Mag Tec brass) will not show such pressure signs as they are designed for pressure which could actually blow the gun up, most likely, and therefore are of little or no use in showing pressure in a shotgun.

I would not use balls that are oversized in the smooth portion of the bore.

The cup wads that Tinker (hollowed fiber) and I use (cup of plastic) keep an undersized ball from touching, yet centred in the bore while the wad itself seals hard against the bore's walls, should take the twist of the tubes and impart that spin to the ball for stabilization.

Well, in theory it should work - and does seem to work in my rifled 12 bore pump - using the undersized ball. I've only shot it at 25 to 30 yards and received an inch and a 1/2 hole for 4 shots. At the same range though, my double smoothbore did produce about the same sized groups. I'll need to try this rifled 'camp-gun' out a bit farther to be sure.

Just re-barreled my gopehr .17, so my thoughts are elsewhere for a while. The double rifle/shotgun with it's patched balls and the 12 bore pump will have to wait a bit.

Good luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: OK so you guys have convinced me ! [Re: DarylS]
      #159774 - 30/04/10 10:33 PM

Daryl, All,

I have played with the 0.730" hard and soft balls with mixed results.
The soft slugs also have mixed results.
I have tried 700X and 800X but velocity is low ~ 850 - 920 fps.
I need to step things up a little.
I do want to try right sized balls and slugs so I ordered a custom sizer die.
The guy making it for me broke his equipment so no die, it has been a few months.
He emailed me and should be back up and running soon !
I also have been traveling for work.
I hope to get back at it soon.

Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26620
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: OK so you guys have convinced me ! [Re: nitro450exp]
      #159776 - 30/04/10 11:41 PM

800X will give better results than 700X, due to being somewhat slower burning. Herco is a good one but seems to require proper wad seating pressure. SR7625 and SR4756 are excellent for round ball loads as well, 4756 giving higher speeds. Some use Bluedot but I've only used it in the 10 bore with shot and have none in my stock.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: OK so you guys have convinced me ! [Re: DarylS]
      #160966 - 25/05/10 12:04 AM

So my custom sizer die finally arrived.
The guy I got it from had some equipment breakage that put him down for a while.
Anyhow I have it in my grubby little paws.

I will size the slugs from 0.730" to 0.726" (full bore) for my gun.
And give her a go.

Will keep you posted.

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
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