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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Round balls in a 20 gauge ??
      #141666 - 07/09/09 12:10 AM

Has anybody used round balls in a 20 gauge smooth bore and what sort of results did you acheive?
What sort of game have you used them on?
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #141668 - 07/09/09 12:24 AM

Hi Al-


Do some web-searching on the .62 caliber muzzle loader.
There are lots of guys out there running '20 gauge' smooth bore guns with roundball - and doing quite well with them on game.

I haven't killed any big game with my 20-bore rifle yet, or I'd happily share with you my experiences with it on meat and bone.

I'm sure Daryl will cruise along here shortly.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
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Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: tinker]
      #141871 - 11/09/09 09:40 AM

Hey Tinker, Alan - lots of guys here use their 20 bore flintlocks for hunting moose. They do as good a job to 80 yards or so, as any gun and better than most modern stuff.

You've experience with 12 bore and blals - I'd just duplicate the types of wads you are familiar with and go from there.
There are moulds available from .590, .595, .600, .610 and .615, the mominal 20 'bore' size. Rapine makes several in these sizes, I believe. Most comon for the smoothbored flinters is the .595".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sgt_Brown
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Reged: 14/08/09
Posts: 24
Loc: NE Ohio, USA
Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: DarylS]
      #143640 - 14/10/09 11:49 AM

I'm running two "20's", a NW Indian Trade Musket smoothbore and a 1740's .62 cal German Stutzen rifle. Both, of course, flint. I've taken one deer with the NW gun and a number with the Stutzen. In every case, the ball goes in one side and out the other, smashing everything in its path. Both are using a .610 round ball on top of 120 grains of fffg. With its wide butt, the Stutzen is a joy to shoot. With its flat, narrow buttplate, the NW gun seems to hurt you damm near as much as the deer!

.61 round balls will do everything you need.

Tom

--------------------
NRA Life member
DRSS

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can - if necessary - look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell. - US Cavalry Manual 1923

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
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Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: Sgt_Brown]
      #143683 - 14/10/09 10:45 PM

Quote:

I'm running two "20's", a NW Indian Trade Musket smoothbore and a 1740's .62 cal German Stutzen rifle. Both, of course, flint. I've taken one deer with the NW gun and a number with the Stutzen. In every case, the ball goes in one side and out the other, smashing everything in its path. Both are using a .610 round ball on top of 120 grains of fffg. With its wide butt, the Stutzen is a joy to shoot. With its flat, narrow buttplate, the NW gun seems to hurt you damm near as much as the deer! Tom



Tom,
Please post photos of your guns, especially the Stutzen rifle!

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: Tatume]
      #143711 - 15/10/09 03:27 AM

Here's a Stutzen Jaeger. Stutzen means hunting rifle, I think. It has taken several bear and deer and will be going after moose, elk and deer this week, or a week. It is .60 cal and shoots a .595" ball.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
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Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: DarylS]
      #143754 - 15/10/09 12:21 PM

Daryl, that is just plain amazing!

I don't think I've seen a prettier piece of wood, and being a flintlock is just icing on the cake.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
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Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #143769 - 15/10/09 11:00 PM

Hi Daryl,

Your stutzen flintlock is simply beautiful. I'm thinking of building or having built a 62 or 66 caliber flintlock rifle, and wanted to see some of this style. Thank you for posting the photos.

According to some sources, stutzen means carbine. Every rifle I've ever seen that was called stutzen had a full length stock, but not all full length stocked rifles are called stutzen. Of course, not all were of German origin.

What is the length of the barrel on your wonderful rifle?

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: Tatume]
      #143770 - 16/10/09 12:51 AM

TKS, Bob. The rifle is my brothers - he built it. Yes, it is an amazing piece of maple. Jaegers were made of walnut, but this one was so striking, Taylor decided to use it for 'his' own hunting rifle. The burl in the butt really makes for a 'lively' stock.

If you want more pictures, better ones inded, contact Jim Chambers, rifle builder 'extraordinaire'. Jim Chambers Flintlocks on google should come up with his address. He sells a book on German rifles of the period, complete with translation in Eglish. It's not cheap, but worthwhile documentation rarely is. My bro's got the book - it is absolutely amazing with closeups, and all views. Most striking of the muzzles, if the decorative filing that makes calibres appear larger than they are and appear to have weird rifling - they don't. here's a couple more of Taylor's Stutzen.

Tom- it has a 31" bl. I believe - Getz .60 with rounded bottomed rifling. .595" ball and .025" denim patch, loads easily and shoots all day without wiping - spit for target, Hoppe's 9 Plus or Mink Oil for hunting lube. 120gr. 2f GOEX for a hunting load for Elk or Moose. 80gr. for deer and bear.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tatume
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Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: DarylS]
      #143783 - 16/10/09 08:13 AM

Hi Daryl,

Quote:

Tom- it has a 31" bl. I believe - Getz .60 with rounded bottomed rifling. .595" ball and .025" denim patch, loads easily and shoots all day without wiping - spit for target, Hoppe's 9 Plus or Mink Oil for hunting lube.



It occurred to me, I suspect that a spit-moistened ball patch is doing the same thing as my spit-moistened cleaning patch. I'm just wasting the extra effort of an additional wipe with the ramrod. You think?

Take care, Tom

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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Sgt_Brown
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Reged: 14/08/09
Posts: 24
Loc: NE Ohio, USA
Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: Tatume]
      #143787 - 16/10/09 01:17 PM

"Steutzen" means "short rifle". Here are some crummy photos of mine - not near as fancy as Daryl's.









And here are a couple of my NW gun. Note this was done as the early, crude version with no trigger plate, tang bolt from the bottom, bridleless lock, EXTREMELY thin forestock, three lock bolts, etc. Quite different from the "mountain man era" versions.





As mentioned before, both are .62 caliber or 20 ga.

Tom

--------------------
NRA Life member
DRSS

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can - if necessary - look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell. - US Cavalry Manual 1923

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DarylS
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Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: Sgt_Brown]
      #143816 - 17/10/09 01:08 AM

Good looking guns, Tom. The Jaeger's stock is more fitting for this style of rifle than my bro's. Too, it is of a slightly earlier period, I think.

Friend of mine, lives in New York, has just completed a beautiful 14 bore Stutzen - very fancy, with incredible engraving, charcoal bluing, etc. The blue is blue and looks to be a foot deep. Incredible!.

As for a hunting rifle, they are better than anything else, excepting the English Sporting rifle's of the late flint or percussion era. Nothing fits as an English gun for a hunting rifle, BUT, the Jaeger's are close.

Back in the 70's, I had a Curly G. 12 bore trade gun and at 5 1/2 pounds, it pounded me horridly, evenwith a light 3 dram charge & developed a flinch I'm still working on.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sgt_Brown
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Reged: 14/08/09
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Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: DarylS]
      #143822 - 17/10/09 05:24 AM

So you knew Curly, too. Hell of a character. Never got to meet him in person but we had some animated phone conversations.

Mine is one of Curly's kits but highly modified to match those of the approx French & Indian War period. I built it and put it away in the gun cabinet after shooting a little hand trap with it. (Hit a clay pigeon with a flint - Right!) Eighteen years passed and, by then, I had a number of deer with my Stutzen, including a Buckeye Big Bucks 10-point. I decided it was time to shoot what I built. As with the Stutzen, the NW gun put it in her left side and out her right, pulverizing all in its path. A couple days later, I missed another doe with what should have been an easier shot. Ah, so much for shooting with a gun that has no rear sight!

Again, coming back to the beginning of this thread, a 20 ga round ball out of either a rifle or smooth bore will do devastating damage to about anything you will come up against in CONUS.

Tom



--------------------
NRA Life member
DRSS

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can - if necessary - look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell. - US Cavalry Manual 1923

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Sgt_Brown
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Reged: 14/08/09
Posts: 24
Loc: NE Ohio, USA
Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: Sgt_Brown]
      #145079 - 03/11/09 12:03 PM

Driving to work today, I thought about one other thing that should be mentioned. I have read (God knows where, however) that rifling doesn't really come into its own until the ball has traveled about 50 yards. Under that range you can be equally accurate with a smoothbore as with a rifled gun. This statement assumes, of course, that the round ball is TIGHTLY PATCHED in the smoothbore to take up any "windage" between the ball and the bore walls. This would not apply if you are using a musket with military-style unpatched ball loads or a cartridge shotgun with old-fashioned "pumpkin ball" loads. Both have space between the ball and the bore, allowing the ball to hit side-to-side before exiting the barrel, thereby degrading accuracy.

Tom

P.S. The log of my being wrong is 2" thick and I am on Volume #4.

--------------------
NRA Life member
DRSS

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can - if necessary - look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell. - US Cavalry Manual 1923

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
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Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: Sgt_Brown]
      #145118 - 04/11/09 03:45 AM

I have killed many animals with my 62 caliber (20 bore) flintlock rifle. I can tell you factually, it's been as effective as my 375H&H on anything I have killed, up to a big moose. In fact, I have killed 4 moose in my life, 2 with a 375H&H, one with a Winchester .348 and one with my 62 cal flinter. The only one that dropped at the shot was killed with the 62.
I use 140 grains of 3F powder and a .600" ball
I have killed several deer, 3 elk, 1 moose, and several antelope with it. It's been all I could ask for, within 200 yards.




Edited by szihn (04/11/09 03:47 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Round balls in a 20 gauge ?? [Re: szihn]
      #145128 - 04/11/09 04:53 AM

Very nice Jaeger, Steve. Well done.

Here's my latest, a 20 bore smooth bore with Imp. Cylinder Choke. So far, I've only used a .600" ball (.604"x.609" - Lee mould) with 3 drams 2F (82gr.). I'll be trying 90 and 100 to try to tighten the 100 meter groups. At 25 yards, I managed a 1 1/2" offhand group when sighting in. Most larger calibre smoothbores will hold in about 4" to 5" at 50 yards consistantly if shot off bags. The odd one will do better, but the fliers spoil otherwise phenominal for smoothbores, groups. Dan P. can attest to that.

This gun is a fine companion to my 14 bore Sporting Rifle. I used it for the first time last Sunday on the trail - managed the 109yard (100 meter) gong as well as a rabbit at 100 yards, but missed the fox at 92 - go figure. These ranges are more suitable for a rifle, of course - 2 sights would help, but not much. Out to 30/35 yards, they give up nothing to most rifles. At 50 yards, all my rifles, including an Engfield Carbine, shoot into 1" or less for 5 shots off the bags. I've never seen a smoothbore that will do that, never will, in my honest opinion, that is.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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