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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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MichaelR
.224 member


Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 21
Loc: NE, US
Ok dumb question?
      #139389 - 23/07/09 01:31 PM

what exactly is the difference between a shotgun with a rifled barrel, in lets say 20 gauge, and a bore gun in 20 bore??

Is this a bore gun or rifled shotgun? CSM rifled gun

I just moved to Iowa and guess what NO center fire rifle deer season, well that's not exactly true as a resident I can hunt with a center fire during the last firearms season of the year(2 wks) and only antlerless.

thanks
mike

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Ok dumb question? [Re: MichaelR]
      #139394 - 23/07/09 02:46 PM

Mike-


I think that the *value in difference* that you can take home -- the *good news for you* -- is that you can hunt with the CSM 20-bore SxS in your 'no centerfire rifle' season.



If the game warden walks up to you (and you're hunting with one of those nice little guns) in the woods with a 'whatchya got there?' inquiry, you can drop a 20-bore shotgun shell in the chamber and touch it off for him.

I've had this conversation with game wardens (on the telephone) from states where there are 'shotgun only', 'no centerfire rifle' seasons. Explained what I had and that I'd like to know if I could hunt their states with my bore-rifles. What it came down to was whether or not they'd be able to chamber and fire a shotgun shell in the chambers.

Call your game warden and have the conversation with him.
Get it straight from the top.
I'm guessing you'll be able to hunt with the CSM 20-bore.

At the end of the day, we know the distinction.
What may well be available for you is the opportunity to hunt with an affordable gun that fulfills the double rifle style and function.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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MichaelR
.224 member


Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 21
Loc: NE, US
Re: Ok dumb question? [Re: tinker]
      #139444 - 24/07/09 11:13 AM

Tinker,
thanks of the fast reply. That dose make scene about being able to chamber and shoot a shot shell.

I am starting to look for a bore gun, to be safe should I look for a gun in a more common shot gun bore? 12, 16 and 20? The CSM was one I saw here are/were double bore guns common?

I see that you are shooting your 16 bore with goex are most bore guns black powder?

Sorry about all the questions but I have never really looked into bore rifles.

thanks for all your help,
Mike

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Ok dumb question? [Re: MichaelR]
      #139448 - 24/07/09 12:52 PM

Mike-


You are very welcome.
I'm glad that I could give you something of use.

For the sake of vernacular, for the most part today's guns are typically called rifled shotguns
We can leave the reasons alone from here on.

If you're after a proper groove diameter projectile shooting 'bore rifle', you're (for the most part) shopping for an antique. Nothing wrong with that, but the selection process can be a bitch and a half - and it can be quite costly.

The 20-bore SxS rifled shotgun from Galazan is designed and built to run sub-caliber saboted bullets, as per modern shotgun slug factory ammunition. If I recall properly (via a telephone conversation with the folks at Galazan early on in production) their gun is built to run the Remington ammunition. As it features 'adjustable regulation' my guess is that a pretty wide range of ammunition can be made to work with it. The groove depth, rate of twist, and rifling profile are all design-specific to best work with sabots and sub-caliber bullets.
Don't expect that gun to work very well with high-energy roundball loads or full-diameter slugs.
Might work, but that's not the premise.


My preference is for the glorious old black powder bore-rifles, and I'm lucky to have ended up with the ones I have - even luckier that they run well.
It takes time and (to some extent) money to get into and stay in the chase for a good one.
Especially one that will fit the needs of your local hunting regulations - and that will run properly and safely for you to hunt with.
I'd suggest you stay away from non-standard gauges (like 14 or 24 or 18...) for the purpose you're discussing. That might just be enough to send your field-warden into a gun-confiscating tailspin. At least you should do your own footwork (or phone-work) and find out for yourself before you buy a rifle.

I don't know of a modern (production-built) SxS or O/U bore-rifle that's set up to run full-gauge projectiles.
If you can be content with running saboted sub-gauge projectiles in something like the Galazan 20-bore rifled shotgun, you're lucky. They're available and they're affordable.
All you need to do is call them on the telephone and read the credit card number, then wait a few months for delivery.
Painless.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Ok dumb question? [Re: MichaelR]
      #139466 - 24/07/09 09:27 PM

Mike,
I think I can help you out some with your questions. I have already done the asking of the important questions to the game warden and this is what he told me. You are allowed to use rifled barrelled shotguns during the shotgun seasons as long as they are not under 20 gauge in size or more than 10 gauge. You can use either iron sights or a scope, or both, it doesn't matter to them. All you have to know is that a shotgun shell will chamber in the gun you are using. You don't have to fire it for him, you might scare the poor man to death.
I have been doing some conversion of shotguns to rifled barrel double guns. Call them what you will, bore guns or rifled shotguns, it doesn't matter one bit, to you, me, or the state of Iowa.
Any deer taken with any of the mentioned combinations is elligable for measurement in any large deer contest or inclusion in the Boone and Crocket book, etc.
If you are thinking of making up a conversion, look for a 12 gauge with a Greener crossbolt. I did one of these on a 16 gauge and it really didn't work out very well, not enough steel in the breech area to do a good conversion. It is also nice to have a push button type forend release or one of the lever type releases. That will help the forend stay on during recoil. Stay with a two trigger model, they are simpler, stronger, and cheaper, but most of all they are more dependable. Side clips are nice but not vitally necessary to the project. Good Luck.

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MichaelR
.224 member


Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 21
Loc: NE, US
Re: Ok dumb question? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #139729 - 29/07/09 09:57 AM

"if you're after a proper groove diameter projectile shooting 'bore rifle', you're (for the most part) shopping for an antique." That is exactly what I'm looking for. I don't like the sabot slugs. I've been trying to find one online but so far haven't even found one. Think I'm not using the right search terms. If you don't mind tinker could you measure the wall thickness of the barrel on your 16 gauge?

"If you are thinking of making up a conversion, look for a 12 gauge with a Greener crossbolt. I did one of these on a 16 gauge and it really didn't work out very well, not enough steel in the breech area to do a good conversion." was the conversion a 16 gauge rifled shotgun on a 16 gauge? Or did you downsize the bore and use the larger frame? like a 20 gauge bore on a 16 gauge shotgun?

Anymore suggestions for me to think about?

thanks again,
mike

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Ok dumb question? [Re: MichaelR]
      #139736 - 29/07/09 12:23 PM

Mike-


The key to your search it to always be set to jump, regardless of your state of preparedness!
I've gone into ultra scramble mode a couple of times for the chance to get such nearly impossible to find treasures.
Next, look where the action is.

I keep my eyes on a few websites --
-Gunsinternational (I check for new items every day here!)
-Gunbroker
-Auctionarms
-Champlin Arms
-Monty Whitley
-Lewis Drake
-Henry Krank
-Mick Shepherd
-Holt's Auction
-Julia Auction
-Greg Martin Auction
-(there are others...)

I also do frequent Google searches using quotation marks around creative and imaginative ways to say what it is that I'm looking for.
Stuff comes up in the strangest places.

Also I keep myself in conversation with a few gentlemen who live all over the globe who know my weaknesses, and we lend support to each other through the seasons via telephone and email.
It's good to stay in touch with each other anyway, and while in the chase for things that suit their needs I've found some interesting things for myself too.
(thanks to those of you who are reading..!)

I'll get a couple of sixteen bore rifles out later on and measure the wall at muzzle, section mid way, and section at chamber throat.
More than anything, that kind of thing is about balance.
You'd be surprised at how little metal is needed to contain bore-rifle pressures - the bigger the bore, the less pressure you'll need to get the beloved (smack!) impact energies.
For a take on 16bore VS 12bore, my Mahillon 2-barrel set is a 16bore double rifle with a second set of 12bore shotgun barrels. It's built on a 12bore frame.

Also, be prepared to get second opinions on what you're looking at.
Emotion can blur your better judgment when something neat finally comes up - but be straight with yourself on whether or not you can properly evaluate antique double rifles.
Also know where the line-in-the-sand lies when it comes to condition. High grade firearms can be a relatively safe place to put your money, they can also be an awfully easy place to lose your money if you don't have relative market comparisons or a solid sense of condition. Value can be subjective when you're shopping for a toy, but you should consider what may come up when/if the time to sell comes around...




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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