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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Casting round balls with lead shot.
      #113300 - 02/09/08 10:24 AM

I cast 75 round balls for my .72 caliber Kodiak today. My son gave ame a huge chunk of lead and we melted it down made the balls. It was a hot fun time here in South Florida. After getting the hang of it ( and getting the lead at the right temperature) the balls turned out perfect. I asked my son where he got such a large amont of lead and he said that he melted down a bag of shot.
What kind of balls did I end up with? Soft lead, Medium hard or hard lead. Apparantly, lead shot is some kind of mix, but I don't know what.

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: tarawa]
      #113303 - 02/09/08 11:06 AM

I would say fairly hard. There is a good deal of antimony in shot.

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2118
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: gatsby]
      #113305 - 02/09/08 11:20 AM

Yes, it will have tin and antimony in it. It would be very good for hunting as the balls will penitrate VERY well.
If you air cooled the balls they will be on the "harder side of medium".
If you water dropped them they will be very hard.
If you get them too hard you may have trouble with loading. You can go to a slightly thinner patch if it's too hard to load.
Also it you roll them between 2 rough surfaces, like a pieces of 80 grit metal cutting paper, you'll get a texture on them that grab the patch better, and that makes them very accurate even if they are hard and don't obdurate much.

happy hunting.

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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: szihn]
      #113308 - 02/09/08 12:00 PM

All the balls were air cooled. I thought that they were a bit hard when I was cutting off the sprue. I cut a few with some diagonal pliers and then found out that they twisted off cleaner without cutting them.
I will try the sandpaper trick on a few and see how they work. Might cast another 75 or more this week. I will also weigh a few of them and see how consistant they cast.
The Jeff Tanner mould really worked out nice.

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26624
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: tarawa]
      #113395 - 03/09/08 02:51 AM

tarawa- I-too like my Tanner moulds. For trimming the sprues, I use ordinary wire strippers. The smaller holes in the strippers work the best for me, leading just a little bit of lead that is easily wiped off with a wood rasp - one swipe. It matters not whether the balls are hard or soft to the strippers.

I think an analysis of the balls would show about 2% antimony and a trace of arsnic, with no tin. It depends on th shot as it may have as much as 3% antimony or as little as 1%. What matters most, is the Kodiak double has fairly shallow rifling which should allow you to use the harder balls just fine. As Steve indicated, you may have to go to a thinner patch than you would use for a pure lead ball, but then, maybe not. Experimentation is what will determine what is necessary.

The picture below shows the two different wire strippers I use for cutting off the sprues- both work well. I shoot straight WW alloy balls in the large bores with no difficulty in loading with the appropriate patch. The straight WW balls are harder than what your shot alloy balls will come out at as our WW run around 5% antimony - apparently - for a brinel reading of 12 to 13. I suspect the shot you used would only be around 7 or 8 at the most. Pure lead runs 5 brinel. I suggest you contact Bruce Strickling's web site for instructions on making paper ctgs. for hard balls for muzzleloading rifles - or contact him through the member's list at www.americanlongrifles.org . The paper ctgs. are a great boon to shooting large bores - not only rapid loading, but amazing accuracy when done correctly. Bruce followed the methods I used and with 1 hole accuracy.


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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: DarylS]
      #113400 - 03/09/08 03:54 AM

Daryl,
Thanks for the tip. I registered at the website and am waiting for verification. Does the paper get loaded in the barrel or is it just a holder for the powder?

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: tarawa]
      #113600 - 05/09/08 12:54 AM

The ball stays inside the paper, ball-up as you load. I make my ctgs. tapered as in the photgraph, using a tapered dowel to form the 'case', similar to the method in the picture of the French Military ctg. making. I do this because the tapered ctg. is easier to handle, and when you tear off the base (small end) there is less powder loss - virtually none as opposed to having a large cylinder torn with powder flying everywhere. After tearing off the base with my teeth, the small end is shoved into the bore. By the time you get the ramrod out, the owder will have trickled down to the breech. The ctg. is then pushed down onto the powder. The paper acts as a seal as the gas pressure slams it against the ball's back end. My ctgs. are a snug fit in the bore of the rifle and gave idential accuracy to a tightly patched round ball - shooting into 1 1/2" at 100 meters off the bags. I can shoot up to 10 paper ctgs. before fouling gets bad, then a squib load of 82gr. of 2f is fired with a tight dripping wet spit lubed denim patched round ball which effectviley cleans the bore allowing up to another 10 ctgs. to be fired. This is in my .69 cal. rifle. My normal powder charge for this rifle is 165gr.2F for 1,550fps with the 484gr. pure lead round ball or 466gr. WW alloy ball. Teh same charge is used for the paper ctg. for hunting moose and big bear.

The paper ctgs. in the photograph are for a Brown Bess Sea Service musket, but are identical in shape and form to my ctgs. for the 14 bore rifle.

One other hint - I use ordinary white glue instead of relying on folding to hold the ctgs. togther. I've carried them in my parka pocket for up to 3 months, without damamge.



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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: DarylS]
      #113838 - 07/09/08 12:02 PM

Thanks for the great drawings and info!

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Dphariss
.300 member


Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: tarawa]
      #114026 - 09/09/08 04:04 PM

I make paper cartridges following Daryl's pattern and find they shoot to point of aim and in the group at 50 yards.
This is a 16 bore flintlock rifle with shallow grooves using 140 gr of FFG. Recovered paper shows rifling imprints.


Dan

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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: Dphariss]
      #114047 - 09/09/08 10:11 PM

When you use these paper loads, I take it that no lube is needed.

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26624
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Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: tarawa]
      #114077 - 10/09/08 03:12 AM

So far, with a good snug fit of the paper ctg. in the bore, there has never been any burning of the paper. If you get burning ctg. paper on the ground, the fit isn't tight enough.

I have not tried nor needed any lubing the paper, but that is merely another line of experimentation that should be sought.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Casting round balls with lead shot. [Re: DarylS]
      #114248 - 12/09/08 10:56 AM

Daryl,
Would placing a felt wad under the ball help or hurt this type of cartridge?

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