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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3539
Loc: Colorado
Black for Smokeless?
      #121511 - 19/12/08 02:36 AM

Having read the previous thread of the question using smokeless in a muzzle loader, I wonder about using black, or black eqivalent powder in a traditionally nitro cartridge.
Knowing that most early cordite/nitro. cartridges started as BP cartidges (.450, .577, 45/70, 500/450, etc.) what are the reasons/dangers of not using BP rather than smokeless?
I thought that BP rifling is generally deeper than in a nitro gun - true?
Pressures using BP are lower than smokeless.
There are many BP eqivalent powders which claim to be less fouling.
I was wondering if the increased interest in BP cartridge shooting has spurred new development in cartridge design, or if there would be anything, positive or negative, (stupid or dangerous) to using BP in a nitro proved gun.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1314
Loc: France / Germany
Re: Black for Smokeless? [Re: Huvius]
      #121513 - 19/12/08 04:37 AM

I agree!Using BP in a Nitro proofed rifle is safe and in the tradition by early old BP cartridges! But dont underestimate BP! It is a EXPLOSIVE and dont forget that in the early 20.century "nitro proofed rifle" were oftens proofed only with a very big charge of BP because the constant pressure increase in comparision to NC (in this time!). Also because of the velocity in pressure increase, you have to use only lead bullets! By the way, in my opinion, there are BP cartridges, few converted in NC cartridges and NC cartridges. BP is not a alternativ for NC. NC cartridges for BP have, may be, to be invent!

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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: Black for Smokeless? [Re: Huvius]
      #122149 - 24/12/08 05:46 PM

Quote:

Having read the previous thread of the question using smokeless in a muzzle loader, I wonder about using black, or black eqivalent powder in a traditionally nitro cartridge.
Knowing that most early cordite/nitro. cartridges started as BP cartidges (.450, .577, 45/70, 500/450, etc.) what are the reasons/dangers of not using BP rather than smokeless?
I thought that BP rifling is generally deeper than in a nitro gun - true?
Pressures using BP are lower than smokeless.
There are many BP eqivalent powders which claim to be less fouling.
I was wondering if the increased interest in BP cartridge shooting has spurred new development in cartridge design, or if there would be anything, positive or negative, (stupid or dangerous) to using BP in a nitro proved gun.



BP is safe in a *sound* smokeless powder gun.
Some of the substitutes are VERY corrosive relative to BP so using these can and have caused problems with pitted bores.

Dan

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Black for Smokeless? [Re: Dphariss]
      #122189 - 25/12/08 12:09 AM

Some of the substitutes are VERY safe and clean up easily with minimal effort. Hodgdon 777 is so easy to clean that you can do it at the range or in the field, with a few wet patches carried in a zip lock bag. After many years now, in numerous guns, I have had no corrosion problems whatsoever. If you want to use a BP substitute, I recommend Triple Seven.

Take care, Tom

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26672
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Black for Smokeless? [Re: Tatume]
      #122197 - 25/12/08 12:41 AM

BP can be used very effectivley with jacketed bullets. The most accurate load in my bro's .45 3-1/4" Sharps was 110gr. 2f and a 500gr. hornady RN.
At the BP velocities with that load - just over 1,350fps, the bullets didn't expand, of course, but the full length penetration in the chest and out the rump dumped a large bull moose in 10 yards of impact. That load printed 5 shots into barely larger than a cloverleaf using the tang rear sight and pin-head front sight. Shot without wiping, of course.

Lead bullets can lead to a lot of cheap shooting practise. Trouble is, in a double, they'll probably not regulate worth a hoot. With lead bullets, you need a good lube like SPG, Lyman's BP Gold or a beeswax/oil compostion. 60/40 works well in most guns. Alox lubes don't work with lead and BP.

I don't like the fake BP's due to the wide variations in velocties (pyrodex) compared to real BP. I prefer real Black Powder. I've heard, but cannot prove from my own experience that T7 will produce wide pressure extremes with full-power loads in large cases. I have some for testing, but have not done that yet. Pyrodex is a poor sub for black powder. I've had good ctg. results with Black Mag 3 - but don't know if it's available now. Still have a few pounds of it.

As Dan said, Pyrodex fouling is corrosive - to both cases and the bore. Proper cleaning maight eliminate this problem.

As to cleaning at the range, a sopping wet patch down the bore, then drying with flannel patches will clean any BP fouling from the bore.

Bullets (cast) must be oversize by .001" to .003" to prevent leading. As noted above, you have to use a good BP lube. SPG and the others work well with WW alloys up to 2,200fps in the larger bores, .45 and above using smokeless loads. In .458 bores, the Lee 500gr. with gas check is a very accurate bullet with smokeless loads. The Lyman or Lee 450gr. is a good one in .50 cal BPE's for accuracy and black powder.

Black Powder specific bullets have wide, square grease grooves. They may or may not need a lube wad beneath them, depending on the case capacity. The more powder used, the more lube needed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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