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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark
70K investment
      #132803 - 20/04/09 02:53 AM

Hey doublefolks .

If I were to make a US$70K investment, and I wanted to get a nice doublerifle, what would be best over the years. Ofcouse we are talking about a british vintage DR. Should I go for a) One good gun of best name/best quality or B) two good doubles of "lesser known" in B-quality?? The gun/guns I would be looking for, is +.450cal Nitro express
Best name for me is H&H, WR, Purdey, Rigby....I guess that leaves everything else to "lesserknown"

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 70K investment [Re: rigbymauser]
      #132806 - 20/04/09 03:39 AM

I would get a best Holland or Westley. 70K is plenty of cash with maybe enough left over (depending on your first investment) to buy a B or C gun also.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Kalunga
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Reged: 16/06/06
Posts: 328
Loc: Germany
Re: 70K investment [Re: rigbymauser]
      #132807 - 20/04/09 03:40 AM

Sorry but I would go to Hartmann & Weiss or Ziegenhahn to have a look at their best quality doubles. Of course an old but good Rigby Sidelock or a Westley Richards droplock would appeal to me too, no doubt about that !

Kalunga

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark
Re: 70K investment [Re: Kalunga]
      #132809 - 20/04/09 03:59 AM


Thanx,,

The benchmark for me in all "doubleriflestuff" is the H&H Royal. I know there is the Royal deluxe Model, but all in all a nice 500/450 or 500/465 royal is as much as one can put into a doublerifle as far as the craftmanship goes. But let see what happens...a good WR in 577cal is not to be rejected either

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3536
Loc: Colorado
Re: 70K investment [Re: rigbymauser]
      #132813 - 20/04/09 04:32 AM

Interesting question.
Purely as an investment, there is more money to be made outside of the very high end rifles such as H&H Royals etc.
IMHO, as percentages goes, there is more to choose from in the $10K-$30K range which will more likely gain than a $70K rifle.
Think of it this way, for a $20K gun to gain 20% in value up to $24K is more reasonable and palatable to a buyer than a $70K rifle moving to $84K over the same given period of time.

That said, of the "big four" (H&H, Purdey, Rigby, and W.R.) I like the rising bite Rigbys best.
Of course, $70K sounds like a lot of money, but when talking original (condition, chambering, excellent finish, excellent bores, etc.) pre-war Holland Royals, you may find they aren't as plentiful as you thought. You should be able to get a good one though.

Watch the auctions too.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 70K investment [Re: Huvius]
      #132817 - 20/04/09 06:35 AM


I concur with Huvius on the money side of things.

I would also suggest you look in the smaller calibre ranges
such as 375 Cal for Hollands and WR's, especially Holland's.

I'd also say that in Double Rifle's, Purdey is the last of the 4 except in Toplever Hammerless and even then, they are not as well known for them.

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark
Re: 70K investment [Re: 500Nitro]
      #132826 - 20/04/09 08:42 AM

thanks guys..

Yes there are a lot of things to consider. I feel I have the time on my side, and I have often got the best, by being patient. I will start looking, and I guess I would say 1-2 years is a realistic time to seek, and observe markets for a prime speciem.
Normally is 70K way over my normal budget, and I don`t nessesary have to spend 70Ks, but on the other hand, if I were to do an investment like having a pensionfond and stuff, 70Ks would be feasible. I would much rather pay to a H&H fund I have in my gunsafe, than pay to a bank, that has the control of where and when I should collect my pension, because they have made a deal with the government.

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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
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Re: 70K investment [Re: rigbymauser]
      #132862 - 20/04/09 06:01 PM

Not withstanding that H&H's lifting their prices by massive amounts every year or two must drag the used market with it, $70K is a lot of eggs to have in one basket. Two or three lesser rifles would be affordable to a larger number of punters when you needed to sell them and they could be disposed of singly if you wanted a certain amount of money but not all at once.

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: 70K investment [Re: Paul]
      #132877 - 20/04/09 07:49 PM

There was a beautiful rising bite Rigby .450NE for sale at Julia's last sale with an estimate at around that price. It dated from 1902 and was virtually mint. I saved the photos, but it may still be on their website too. Its the only one I've seen offered on the open market in that condition offered for quite a while but in a 2 year time-frame you should find something. You probably need to speak to someone with contacts among collectors. If its for a pension investment, you can also buy and sell, each time adding funds and improving the quality of the pieces you buy...

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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: 70K investment [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #133300 - 24/04/09 03:07 AM

In my opinion, if you are looking for an investment then you need to consider value "out the door", individual desirability, and long term worth of the brand.

Value "out the door". You can purchase a firearm new but as soon as you take possession it becomes used. The value of that firearm suffers an immediate decline that usually takes years to recover from. So I suggest you are best off purchasing a second-hand firearm for any but the very longest term investment. You can often find "as new" and "unfired" second-hand guns that retain their "out the door" value. But if you purchase a used, but not abused, firearm you then you have the option of shooting it yourself without reducing the value. Shooting it becomes sort of a dividend on your investment.

A firearm purchased as an investment should also have a high degree of future desirability. Obsolete calibers, faddish styles, and bizarre mechanism will appeal to fewer potential buyers than standard calibers, classic styles, and well established mechanisms. I don't think you can go wrong with a double rifle in .375 or .470. The .375 isn't going away anytime soon and most new large bore double orders are for the good old .470. I believe a fine sidelock will always be more desirable than a boxlock, with the possible exception of Westley Richards' droplock design. Classic sights, stock shapes, checkering patterns, and engraving will never fall out of fashion.

Regarding brands, I suggest you choose a well known firm, long established, that has a very good chance of being in business for the duration of your investment. There have been some excellent firearms made by failed companies, their brands having fallen into obscurity. The value of most obscure maker's firearms have tended to hit plateaus, neither falling nor rising over time. Additionally, you will want to send the firearm to the original manufacturer should it need some sort of repair. For example, British made Rigbys are fine guns and considered by most to be a good choice for investing but if your gun needs repair where will you send it? Your only choices would make an "original" gun less than original. If you send your "original" Holland & Holland to the maker for repair then what you get back is still all Holland & Holland.

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: 70K investment [Re: rigbymauser]
      #133302 - 24/04/09 03:29 AM

Quote:

Hey doublefolks .

If I were to make a US$70K investment, and I wanted to get a nice doublerifle, what would be best over the years. Ofcouse we are talking about a british vintage DR. Should I go for a) One good gun of best name/best quality or B) two good doubles of "lesser known" in B-quality?? The gun/guns I would be looking for, is +.450cal Nitro express
Best name for me is H&H, WR, Purdey, Rigby....I guess that leaves everything else to "lesserknown"



In investment terms Purdey has no equal. However, $70,000.00 will not get you in the door for a investment grade Purdey.

If it were me and my budget was a bit more say $80,000.00 I would order a new Westley Richards in 470 with all the bells and whistles. That is a gun that will increase in value if kept well, and will work the best in the field over any other imho.

In fact I have new one..



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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: 70K investment [Re: ]
      #133303 - 24/04/09 05:10 AM

generalwar, for a shotgun yes, for a double rifle no, H&H, best Mike

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 70K investment [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #133307 - 24/04/09 05:32 AM


I agree with you Mike.

A Purdey DR is last on my list as an investment as I said before and like you, if it was a Purdey, it would have to
be a Shotgun.

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: 70K investment [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #133310 - 24/04/09 05:35 AM

Quote:

generalwar, for a shotgun yes, for a double rifle no, H&H, best Mike



A shotgun? That's comedy!

Have you ever owned a big bore H&H? I have owned more than a few very nice pieces over the years, and they all have come off face in less than 30 rounds. You couldn't pay me to own another one.

A best droplock WR double rifle is on par with the finest london made Rigby as far as reliability and accuracy..

And for the bush, the detachable lock WR big bore is by far the best choice imo.

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: 70K investment [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133311 - 24/04/09 05:36 AM

Quote:


I agree with you Mike.

A Purdey DR is last on my list as an investment as I said before and like you, if it was a Purdey, it would have to
be a Shotgun.



Have you guys bought and sold any $200,000 investment grade DR Purdey's?

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 70K investment [Re: ]
      #133314 - 24/04/09 05:53 AM


GeneralWar

I was looking at it from this angle.

The market for high end Purdey Shotgun's is a lot bigger than High end Purdey DR's.

I don't know why your high end big bore DR's have come off the face.

I do own a number of Big Bore DR's, not high end one's ATM
but a Few Smaller calibre in the better makes.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3536
Loc: Colorado
Re: 70K investment [Re: Grenadier]
      #133316 - 24/04/09 06:00 AM

Quote:

Regarding brands, I suggest you choose a well known firm, long established, that has a very good chance of being in business for the duration of your investment. There have been some excellent firearms made by failed companies, their brands having fallen into obscurity. The value of most obscure maker's firearms have tended to hit plateaus, neither falling nor rising over time.



Not sure I'm buying into this entirely.
There are many English makers which are more or less defunct who's guns continue to grow in desireability - not to mention the gun market in general - Henry lever actions come to mind.

Also, the notion that only the maker is capable of making proper repairs is a little overboard.
I assure you, there are many high grade guns around which have had repairs by other than their maker, and if done right, you could never tell. A master gunmaker is a master gunmaker regardless of which firm they have worked or currently work for.

I have noticed, buying from overseas is a much more approachable prospect now that the dollar is up a bit.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DGR375
.300 member


Reged: 04/10/07
Posts: 131
Loc: Gold Coast, QLD
Re: 70K investment [Re: Huvius]
      #133337 - 24/04/09 10:50 AM

If you have plenty of time, a good place to start would be at Diggory Hadoke's website and book. The website is at

http://www.vintageguns.co.uk/

Diggory is off to Africa next week on safari, so any emails won't be answered for a while. However, his book would be very useful; I have a copy and found it interesting and informative.

http://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Guns-Colle...4169&sr=8-1

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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: 70K investment [Re: DGR375]
      #133344 - 24/04/09 12:50 PM

Funny how people have different experiences....I've owned two nice Holland Royal Doubles, a 1952 vintage 500/465 and a 1904 vintage 500/450, still have the 500/450. I've put quite a few rounds down both and never had them come loose. I looked hard at a WR droplock and had JJ talk me out of it. His comment was "they are good for show not for go". I haven't owned any Purdeys but I've handled several and they felt heavy to me but to each their own. I own several Webley boxlocks and for overall reliability they would get my vote over any of the high end sidelocks.

So far all the quality, good condition English doubles I've had have been good investments. I've learned different things from all of them and haven't regretted buying any of them.

Have fun with your search, be selective and critical and you'll find a nice one. When you find it don't worry about a few bucks here or there, if it's nice and what you want, buy it. Quality and condition are always a good investment and easy to resell.



Edited by 470evans (24/04/09 12:58 PM)

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 70K investment [Re: ]
      #133359 - 24/04/09 05:01 PM

GW,
I have a couple Hollands and they have not come off face yet and I have fired more than 30 rounds in each gun but if you say that your experience has been different, I believe you.
70k was the budget given to work with to buy a vintage gun, with that I would be looking for a Holland or Westley and be happy with either one.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: 70K investment [Re: ]
      #133360 - 24/04/09 05:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

generalwar, for a shotgun yes, for a double rifle no, H&H, best Mike



A shotgun? That's comedy!

Have you ever owned a big bore H&H? I have owned more than a few very nice pieces over the years, and they all have come off face in less than 30 rounds. You couldn't pay me to own another one.

A best droplock WR double rifle is on par with the finest london made Rigby as far as reliability and accuracy..

And for the bush, the detachable lock WR big bore is by far the best choice imo.



I suppose thats why Hollands are prized, they only last 30 rounds....come on, be serious, what were you firing ? proof loads best Mike

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: 70K investment [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #133365 - 24/04/09 05:50 PM

RigbyMauser, another idea might be a mint Royal Paradox from the 1920's. I think these are
underpriced and have only one way to go, they are also very useful, just a thought and you
won't have to spend $70k or you could buy something else too best, Mike

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 70K investment [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #133394 - 25/04/09 12:12 AM

Quote:

RigbyMauser, another idea might be a mint Royal Paradox from the 1920's. I think these are
underpriced and have only one way to go, they are also very useful, just a thought and you
won't have to spend $70k or you could buy something else too best, Mike



Good luck in finding one, there were less than a dozen 12 Royal pdxes's made in the '20's.
But why limit yourself to the '20's?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (25/04/09 01:28 AM)

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: 70K investment [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #133405 - 25/04/09 02:01 AM

Quote:

I suppose thats why Hollands are prized, they only last 30 rounds....come on, be serious, what were you firing ? proof loads best Mike



No offense to you Holland DR guys..

There are prized for the calibres under 500, I was talking 'big bores' and all the H&H big bores I have had have come off face.

Call George Caswell he will tell you how soft they are. He told me a funny story as well. He had been invited to a formal dinner with the managing director of H&H years ago, and mentioned what I am discussing, the fellow completely agreed, and Caswell had a deluxe 577 I believe that you could watch a movie thru after 12 shots. There's never been a fix as far as I know, besides having them put back on face over and over..

The smith Ken Eversull is the best for such cases..

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: 70K investment [Re: ]
      #133468 - 25/04/09 02:55 PM

Quote:

There are prized for the calibres under 500, I was talking 'big bores' and all the H&H big bores I have had have come off face.




I'm interested to know how many guns you're talking about here.
Also what calibers were they, and from what era were they built?

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