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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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rgp
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Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
prepurchase questions for double rifle owners...
      #32065 - 26/05/05 02:03 PM

The fact that the purchase price of a double is relatively high is largely irrelevant to me, but the cost of feeding the beast is relevant. I've wanted a double rifle for the past 30 years...buying it is a one time cost but feeding it is a lifetime expense.

I've mostly been looking at the prospect of buying a .470 NE from Searcy or Chapuis, but would ideally prefer a .450/.400 NE for practical use reasons, or a .450 NE because it takes easily obtainable .458" bullets. The reason I am thinking toward a .470 is because Federal makes ammunition for it. I reload but the concept of being able to easily order a box of .470 factory ammunition is very appealing, as is the availability of relatively cheap hard cast .475 Linebaugh bullets for practice loads.

Also when looking at the costs and availability of components for .450/.400, I saw "thin rim" and "thick rim" as well as two case lengths...also noticed several other double rifle calibres with "thin rim or thick rim" and two case length options. Is the thin rim/thick rim the actual exterior rim thickness or does it refer to internal variations of the case? Can the same rifle shoot both or is this another example of non standardization?

Most likely the double would spend a lifetime being used hunting coyotes and wild hogs in Texas...I've been to Africa but never to hunt, and if I ever hunt outside of the USA it will be in Australia (NT) or South America, and if hunting outside of the USA, I will most likely take a relatively cheap and easily replaceable Winchester Model 70. On previous occasions I've borrowed guns from the natives.

Beware, I'll probably come up with a lot more questions before I actually buy one...

Richard.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners... [Re: rgp]
      #32088 - 26/05/05 08:51 PM


rgp

Firstly, 470 use .474 bullets, not .475 although I wouldn't use them
I believe they work. As with all English doubles / guns, it's best to check
the bore diameter anyway.

450/400 3 1/4" uses a thin rim and was a black powder cartridge
taken over to Nitro. However they had extraction problems early on
so the 450/400 3" which uses a THICK Rim and was bought out by Jeffrey to
overcome this problme.

It is not a problem now so don't turn down a 450/400 3 1/4".

The rim is the thickness of the rim at the base of the cartidge.
I think it is .040 for Thin Rim and .060 for THICK Rim.

Can the same rifle shoot both - No

Relaoding is cheaper than buying Federal 470 ammo.

Also, you don't shoot them that much to worry about the cost
- unless you will be shooting them every day !!!

Hope this helps.

500 Nitro

I HAVE SENT YOU A PM

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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners... [Re: rgp]
      #32090 - 26/05/05 10:33 PM

In reply to:

The reason I am thinking toward a .470 is because Federal makes ammunition for it. I reload but the concept of being able to easily order a box of .470 factory ammunition is very appealing,



I think these days the new DRs in .470 are regulated with Federal, but I'm not 100% sure. Check with the DR manufacture before you buy--it may be regulated with a different .470 round and may not shot worth a s**t with Federal ammo.


--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: rgp]
      #32093 - 26/05/05 11:23 PM

The solution to this dilemma is simple. Just use 500 grain cast lead loads in your 470. 45 grains of XMP5744 (no filler) is almost guaranteed to regulate. Recoil is low. If you don't cast your own, you can buy some bullets from Wayne Doudna at reasonable prices.

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: 500grains]
      #32099 - 27/05/05 12:36 AM

In reply to:

The solution to this dilemma is simple. Just use 500 grain cast lead loads in your 470. 45 grains of XMP5744 (no filler) is almost guaranteed to regulate. Recoil is low. If you don't cast your own, you can buy some bullets from Wayne Doudna at reasonable prices.



have you chronographed that load? I'm curious as to how close it is to "regulation" velocity.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
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Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: new_guy]
      #32104 - 27/05/05 01:38 AM

It is way below regulation velocity. ALthough I have not chronographed it, I think it is probably around 1500 fps. But it regulates and hits dead on in three 470's that I know of. And probably more.

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
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Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32106 - 27/05/05 01:45 AM

Even though the 470NE has a nominal bore of .474, cast revolver bullets can and have been used with great success. FYI, to properly use cast bullets with success, they must have a sized diameter at least .001 to .002 over bore diameter to obturate properly.



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
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Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: 500grains]
      #32110 - 27/05/05 02:56 AM

In reply to:

It is way below regulation velocity. ALthough I have not chronographed it, I think it is probably around 1500 fps. But it regulates and hits dead on in three 470's that I know of. And probably more.



I never made it to cast bullets in my 470, but i've tried Wayne Doudna's 375 bullets (335gr) with little luck. Not to imply it's his bullets, but rather it's my gun.

I can get two good, individual groups with the 335gr at about 1800fps, but they are 4" low and about 8" apart (relative to POA).

That seems to be the way my gun shoots slow bullets (as opposed to the high and crossing theory.)

I haven't tried lighter than 335gr, but should. I was just wondering how important velocity was in your equation with the 470, and it doesn't sound like it was of much sig.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: new_guy]
      #32112 - 27/05/05 03:59 AM

my rifle also shoots slow bullets low, at least at 50+ yards, but they do cross.

JPK

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners... [Re: 475Guy]
      #32114 - 27/05/05 04:16 AM


475Guy

Thanks for the info re cast bullets and diameter. I supposed it also depends on
how hard the cast bullet is !!!

Some people over here use Teflon Tape around the base of the cast bullet - it sems to work
really well - especially on Bore Guns and Paradox's.

500 Nitro

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
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Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: JPK]
      #32116 - 27/05/05 04:34 AM

In reply to:

my rifle also shoots slow bullets low, at least at 50+ yards, but they do cross.

JPK



I failed to mention that mind don't cross.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32119 - 27/05/05 06:30 AM

For harder cast, as sized diameters are overzized by a bit and the paperpatching does the same thing with soft cast stuff. It's just a matter of fitting the cast bullet to the gun. Cast shooting can be esoteric at the very least as you can go through various/numerous loads long before you can get the one or two that satifies your accuracy and velocity requirements. In other words, it can be a major PAIN-IN-THE-ASS if you're not patient enough to wade through the folk-lore and use semi-scientific methods to get the good loads you need.



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners... [Re: 475Guy]
      #32121 - 27/05/05 07:14 AM


475Guy

I think that's why I have stayed away from shooting Black Powder doble rifles
(although I do buy them if I like them).

I have probably done load development on about 20 - 30 or so Nitro Doubles
across 15 or so calibres and even that can get a bit weary although after the first couple
I found it easy now to get a rifle shooting within about 10 shots.

500 Nitro

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32126 - 27/05/05 08:00 AM

500 Nitro,

When in Texas I live on a ranch and can shoot whenever I feel like it...I used to occasionally snipe crows and coyotes with a .375 from the balcony upstairs.

People around here think I'm eccentric.

Richard.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: rgp]
      #32129 - 27/05/05 08:11 AM


rgp

"People around here think I'm eccentric."

Then that maks 2 of us.

Kangaroos with a 505 Gibbs !!!

Driven Kangaroos with a 500 Nitro double !!!
(The farmer drives them from the scrub on a 4 wheel bike
towards us staning on a ridge)

Believe me it's fun but you get sideways looks from people.

After all, what else can you shoot with them if you are not halfway
across the country in the NT hunting buffalo or pigs ?

I hate shooting targets so any game is better practive than targets.

500 Nitro

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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32132 - 27/05/05 08:30 AM

I do the same thing with my german SxS 8x57r. Only it's black bears driven out of the corn fields in Quebec. The farmer, my uncle loves it, and it's as close to driven game as most Canadians get.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: 500grains]
      #32133 - 27/05/05 08:33 AM

Thank you for all the information on the cast loads. I used to cast my own (20 years ago) but now prefer to buy any cast bullets I use.

Also if buying a double rifle in the USA does anyone have a preferred dealer? I'm not far from Chadick's in Texas but they usually only have Chapuis doubles, and it would be nice to be able to see a variety of rifles from a number of makers before choosing what to get.

Richard.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: rgp]
      #32134 - 27/05/05 08:37 AM

dealer:

www.champlinarms.com

www.ivorybeads.com

www.searcyent.com

There are others.

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32136 - 27/05/05 08:42 AM

I'm very familiar with the strange look from people who have me confused with an escaped mental patient.

Also if you haven't tried it yet, you can probably go fishing with those big .50's. Never owned a .50 myself but a .458 works so a .50 should be better. They float to the surface stunned but you have to pick them with a net fast before they recover.

Richard.

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: rgp]
      #32137 - 27/05/05 08:57 AM

Champlin's is one dealer that I want to see as well.

Depending on how much nasty red tape is involved in international transfers, I'm also considering checking shops in or near Melbourne and Sydney next time in Australia.

Richard.

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: 500grains]
      #32142 - 27/05/05 10:38 AM

Another dumb question, but because I don't want to accidentally ask a dealer a rude question...When buying a double from shops such as these, is the sale price typically negotiable as when buying a house or land or a car, or are prices typically firm?

Richard.

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mickey
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Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: rgp]
      #32146 - 27/05/05 11:55 AM

In reply to:

Poster: rgp
Subject: Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners.

Another dumb question, but because I don't want to accidentally ask a dealer a rude question...When buying a double from shops such as these, is the sale price typically negotiable as when buying a house or land or a car, or are prices typically firm?

Richard.




Yes. Except when buying from me.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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new_guy
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Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: rgp]
      #32153 - 27/05/05 01:52 PM

In reply to:

When buying a double from shops such as these, is the sale price typically negotiable



In used guns, you bet your ass it is!

Unless the gun is a complete dog (and i assume you won't be looking at such) a dealer is going to have AT LEAST 30% (average) markup in the asking price of the gun.

From there, you know what you're dealing with. But most importantly, it comes down to how desireable the gun is what condition it's in, what caliber it's in and what the market will bear.

Before i get too long winded...

Have you decided if you want a new gun or a used gun? That's important to know before i opine any further.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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rgp
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Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: new_guy]
      #32160 - 27/05/05 03:03 PM

I've only seen a few double rifles in person and have not decided exactly what to get yet or whether to buy new or used. The only rifles I've always wanted were a good double and an 1874 Sharps and I've spent more on ordinary production guns which I didn't like much than it would have cost to get what I really wanted. The Shiloh Sharps is on order and will be delivered in about a year, and the one to look for now is the double.

My intent is to be patient and look at as many doubles as possible which could take months, and try to learn how to make a good choice and avoid getting reamed on a purchase.

Also I want to make certain that what I get is something for which bullets and brass are fairly easy to obtain, because without that, it could be a bit difficult to use.

Richard.

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new_guy
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Re: prepurchase questions for double rifle owners. [Re: rgp]
      #32170 - 27/05/05 10:43 PM

In reply to:

My intent is to be patient and look at as many doubles as possible which could take months, and try to learn how to make a good choice and avoid getting reamed on a purchase.



or sometimes years.

The best advice that i can give you is to buy from a reputable dealer - ESPECIALLY if you are buying a used gun (of any age.)

You also need to establish an "evaluation" relationship (for a fee) with that dealer, just in case you run across something on your own.

When things go wrong with a DR, they can be expensive to repair, and if it's a used gun - you need to know that the dealer is going to stand behind the necessary and unforseen repairs.

I definitely encourage you to look at, hold, and shoot as many as you can. And be weary to a deal that seems too good to be true... as it probably is.

My advice is to hook up with George Caswell, make arrangements to go and visit him in person. Look, touch, feel his inventory and give him some idea of what you want (in terms of condition, caliber, etc.) and he'll tell you what you're going to have to spend.

Or start with what you want to spend, and he can tell you what you can expect for the money.

George is going to stand behind his guns (just ask CFA who blew up an H&H recently - George took the gun and gave him his money back.) Another less established dealer could have easily told him "tuff luck."

George aslo has a big client base, knows who has what, who might be looking to sell something out of their collections.

He's also a good source for evaluating the mechanical working order of guns you may find. Although he won't be able to stand behind a gun you buy from another dealer, he would be able to look it over for you and make sure everything is "right" with the gun before you conclude the sale.

Good luck!

PS - The other dealer you mentioned in TX - would not be as good a resource as George (IMO.)

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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