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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Gun weight situation worse than ever.........
      #81843 - 04/07/07 09:06 PM

So, here we are once again...

Ok, two 450x3.25" rifles, bpe guns not nitro.

Gun No.1 weight 8 lbs, hammer Jones underlever. Gun No.2 weight 10.5 lbs, hammer Jones underlever.

Why? the barrel length is the same 28" on both guns, built the same way, so why on earth is one so much heavier?

Could this be to allow early cordite loadings? Would the gun always have been proofed thus, even when cordite first came about?

Many thanks indeed

Ben

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: empirevr]
      #81855 - 05/07/07 01:19 AM

When were the guns manufactured? What makes one heavier than the other, ie, barrels, width across the action or is alot of the extra weight in the stock?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: gatsby]
      #81863 - 05/07/07 03:17 AM

Gatsby hello how are you?

Just overall weight....i cannot decipher why,though one seems to have thicker looking barrels....

Isnt 10.5 lbs heavy for a 450 BPE gun? any comments on the early cordite guns? i.e. were they proofed 'cordite only' straight away as soon as cordite came about?

One gun is 1875 other is same give or take a few years....same except heavier one has dolls head extension.

Many thanks

Ben

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: empirevr]
      #81865 - 05/07/07 03:21 AM



empirevr

Measure the barrel widths at various points

or post some photos.

Weights of guns varied enourmously depending
on who made them


And no, some BPE guns were heavy and
1875 is very very early so unlikley to be cordite.

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #81866 - 05/07/07 03:35 AM

Nigel

Thanks, good point.....

Ok the light one is 1875 at just under 8 lbs, the other is 10.5 lbs......

Yes i forgot my dates, oh dear.......cordite was circa 1895 no?

One is a Bonehill one is a Thomson Alex.

Former heavier, latter lighter......

Many thanks

Ben

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: empirevr]
      #81879 - 05/07/07 08:52 AM

Ben:

This is as fundamental as it gets. This weight variance is normal among double rifles, and you're trying to read way too much into it.

It's sometimes said that the lower quality guns are the most likely to be overweight, but that isn't always true. Some time back I ran across a superb Westley Richards best quality sidelock ejector in .450/.400 3" NE. This was a fairly late rifle from the '30s. It was 12 1/4 lbs. Just last week a friend called about an early Jeffery in the same caliber. It was 12 lbs, 2 oz. My own rifle in that caliber is 10 lbs, 2 oz. A friend just bought a really nice Holland .500 BPE hammergun that's around 9.5 lbs. We previously looked at a mint Purdey .577 BPE hammergun - that was 9.5 lbs.

You will see the same thing in all calibers, black or nitro. NEVER assume that an unusually heavy BPE was intended for nitro. That's what proof marks are for. I'm always shopping for several folks and probably turn down more otherwise nice rifles for excessive weight than for any other reason.

Especially among the British gunmakers, the idea was to build the gun heavy enough for the given caliber to make it tolerable to shoot, but not everyone agreed as to what the ideal was. Keep in mind that the customer ordering the gun may have had his own idea. And yes, some were built on actions of excessive size for caliber in order to save money.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #81883 - 05/07/07 12:39 PM

For some reason there are lots of overweight 450-400 doubles floating around. They're fine for the shooting range, but if I carry a gun that weighs in like a 470 NE (10 lbs), then I want a 470 NE.

Last year or the year before Cabelas had a 450-400 that weighed 14 pounds. I think it was built on an 8 bore shotgun frame. They were charging US$1000 per pound for it.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: 500grains]
      #81886 - 05/07/07 12:57 PM

A normal .470 doesn't weigh 10 lbs. It weighs 10.75 to 11.5.

The problem is no more common among .400s than any other caliber.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #81888 - 05/07/07 03:32 PM

Actually it is.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: 500grains]
      #81889 - 05/07/07 03:37 PM



Personally, I think empirev and a heap of others
spend too much time pondering the weights without
actually looking at the gun.

I had 4, 500 Nitro Doubles at one stage.

The 3 on Webley actions all weighed virtually
the same. The lang felt like it was 2lbs lighter
because it was so well balanced.

The same applies to my 4 x 450/400's.
The 2nd Lightest one actually feels nearly
the heaviest.


Empirev
When you come across that Holland Royal 465
in perfect nick for $10,000 but weighs 12 Lbs,
give me a call !!!

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #81909 - 06/07/07 12:45 AM

Yes.

But then Nigel, and for anyone else wondering, the idea is to ask so as to know!!!

Now,i can 'see the light' instead of finding myself aiming for the gun with more weight as opposed to looking at the quality et al.

So, thankyou!

Ben

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: empirevr]
      #81923 - 06/07/07 04:55 AM


empirev

Not having a go at you about asking,
about the focus you (and others) place
on it when looking for a gun.

And almost automatically dismissing
guns because of the weight.


Buy a 12lb 500 Nitro and chop the barrels
by 2" - solves the problem !

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #81924 - 06/07/07 05:28 AM

Hi Nigel

Yes i know, i am just saying, only by asking can me and any other newbies learn the correct procedure for double rifle acquisition.

I have missed some interesting things actually, but whether it was due to being over cautious or merely astute in each case i cannot tell you.

About 5 years ago i was in contact with a well known enough antique gun dealer, i called him and said i wanted a bpe double rifle in fully usable condition.

Back came two Greeners, a 500 bpe hammerless.......and a 500 nitro hammerless.

Price? both had the same price, £2,000 each.......

Well i was nervous as hell, i was asked to send a cheque as some kind of well to do chap was in possession of them, and well i hesitated, then next thing they were no longer for sale.....

Anyway such things are very very annoying, but hardly a situation where i could 'jump in'

The one i truly regret, is the Dougall lockfast 500 bpe hammer, with high relief engraving of elephants buffalo and such. I hate myself for missing that gun.

Ben

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26620
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: empirevr]
      #81927 - 06/07/07 07:02 AM

On some calibre rifles chambered for the long BPExpress ctgs., seemingly overweight guns sometimes indicates they may have faster twists designed for heavier bullets.
; One must masrue the twist rates to estabilish what bullet weights they were designed for. Rodd Seyfried ran into this himself and upon checking twist rates, found fast twsits for long heavy bullets, hense more weight in the gun to counter heavier recoil.
: Note that nothing is cast in stone - one MUST measure the rate of twist - some guns are merely overweight.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: DarylS]
      #81929 - 06/07/07 07:34 AM

Thanks Daryl.

Did you get my mail/s?

http://www.mylandco.com/index.php?pageid=99&listingid=124

Opinions on this gun guys?

500x3.25" is considered a 'superior' caliber....

I know some consider Manton lowly in the double range.....

All i wish to know is; is it an ok price,and an ok gun, and tough?

(has no bore pitting etc tight on face etc so apart from these things)

Many thanks

Ben

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: empirevr]
      #81930 - 06/07/07 07:36 AM



500 x 3.25" is no more superior to the 500 x 3".
Some crp on that it is and generally they have
a 3.25" so are talking up their gun.

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Gun weight situation worse than ever......... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #81933 - 06/07/07 07:52 AM

Did the extra case capacity never come into play then?

What do you think of that gun Nigel?

Many thanks

Ben

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