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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
W.Richards .577 Snider
      #88548 - 09/11/07 08:10 AM


Hi,
Some friends ask me to post pictures of my double rifles.
This is my W.Richards (Liverpool) the rifle, a .577 Snider was made around 1870. W.Richards is not a Westley Richards.
Some time ago I bought it as it was the first double rifle I saw. It was the first of many rifles I restore until I realize that it was cheaper to but them in good condition. LOL
The rifle was almost destroyed but the price was low enough and barrels are almost mint. Serial number was erased, only two last digits (19) on locks, so could not get information from W:Richards
It was restocked and reblued.
I have not find a good load yet but the information on “britishmilitaryforum” is very promising but I have been trying to make my Pedersoli Kodiak regulate and had no range time for the Snider. The W.Richards is next one.
This rifle feels much lighter than the Kodiak even thou it is only 1 pound lighter.
Something that puzzles me is the dog on the action as it is a small game hunting dog on a big game rifle.









Thanks
Martin

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: beleg2]
      #88553 - 09/11/07 09:52 AM

Did you find the gun in Argentina? I see the address. I have a little exerience with the .577 snyder cartridge. It wasn't always successful. Interesting doublegun.
Do you hunt with them and where?

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #88554 - 09/11/07 10:11 AM

88MauSporter,
I bought it from a man that told me:
“My father works as gunsmith many years ago and one day a German took this rifle to repair but never get to pick it up”. So his father took the rifle home.
This was at San Juan province (close to Los Andes mountains) and it is all I can get of its history.

I did not hunt with it yet, but have plans to do it in near future. I hope.... LOL

Thanks
Martin

BTW: from your name I presume you are interested in Sporting 1888 Mausers. Is it true?

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: beleg2]
      #88572 - 09/11/07 02:38 PM

Does that gun have English proofs or Belgium proofs?
There have been several of these show up on the net the past few weeks

Here is an article by John Taylor and written for Briley Manufacturing the shotgun barrel people.




Grampa's Shotgun

Edited by DoubleD (10/11/07 06:24 AM)

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3494
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: DoubleD]
      #88585 - 09/11/07 11:18 PM

The .577 Snider is easy to load for if you 'bite the bullet' and obtain or have made a groove-diameter flat-base bullet mold. If you've been visiting the British Military forums, you will quickly learn this fact when you read their archives and resources pages.

Job no.1: slug the bore!

The Snider rifle in my collection is a Mk.III volunteer pattern 3-bander by Barnett of London, and its groove diameter is .598. If the chamber dimensions won't let you seat a groove-diameter bullet, you may need to shorten the case by an eighth-inch and cut a mold for a heeled bullet (like a .22 rimfire) but this is usually unnecessary.

A Snider double rifle with engraving of dogs is not unusual since the cartridge was a small-to-medium bore chambering in its day. Big game rifles were 8-bore (or perhaps 10 or 12-bore) at the time.

It looks like a nice double. You should have a lot of fun getting it to shoot!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: Marrakai]
      #88591 - 09/11/07 11:44 PM

Some more pictures of proof marking.





DoubleD,
Thanks. Link is not working, how can I find the page.

Marrakai,
thanks
I have some full bore "paradox like" bullets from a friend that I will try soon.
Also, I will try some R.E.A.L. as I will buy a mold for my Kodiak. I plan to sice the bottom and paper patch to full bore.

Thanks
Martin

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: beleg2]
      #88608 - 10/11/07 02:50 AM

Martin:
Thanks for the information and good story of the .577 Snyder double. It would be a rifle I would like to own as well. Yes, I have three original sporters on the 1888 action. All three are 8x57 ( j / I ) bore on two and an "S" configuration on a the third. Two seem to be built by the same maker. Barrel length and configuration, engraving style, sights, etc. Both have lovely tapered octogon with two leaf open sights.
Stock styles almost identical. They differ in that one is original magazine configuration for the 5 cartridge clip and the other modified with no extended magazine, but an intigral 3 round magazine that requires no clip. This one has Mannlicher style claw mounts installed, but no scope was with it.
The third is a full lenght carbine with shrouded barrel jacket as with the military. I have hunted deer and russian bore with the one with open sights. I suppose I should switch this over to the Mauser catagory!!
I have great interest of sporting guns in South America. I have a collection of Argentine and Chilean military Mausers and Argentine Remington Rolling block that I love to shoot. Mi esposa is Chileana.
I have been to Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Brazil and Peru. I have seen a few guns for sport, but not many so far. I would like to here more about this.
Thanks,

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26597
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #88613 - 10/11/07 03:19 AM

Be careful with a Kodiak double rifle when shooting anything but a patched round ball. When the first barrel is fired, the slug can and will move foreward off the powder. If it moves forward too far, the barrel can blow at the breech. I suggest a patched ball only in double barreled muzzleloaders. Slugs can end up getting you and your gun hurt.
: The REAL bullet is quite undersize comparred to most Sniders. Normal is around .586", but like Mar's can be comswaht larger yet. Slugging the bores is necessary. I do hope they are the same.
: I see considerable pitting ahead of the chambers. Firelapping can eleviate that to some extent. Lapping is also useful.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: DarylS]
      #88616 - 10/11/07 05:24 AM

88MauSporter,
I sold a M88 sporting carbine last year, I will post some pictures on Mauser Forum tomorow.

I forget to include the picture of the dog on the action:



Daryl,
Thanks for your concern. I have check bullet movement with the REAL and could not see any. I have shot 20 pairs without a problem. Will see closer.
For use REALs on my Snider my plan is to paper patch them to full bore sice.

Thansk
Martin

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: beleg2]
      #88618 - 10/11/07 05:45 AM

Martin,

If you think that this gun doesn't look very nice then I am sure that your other ones look absolutely stunning! To be honest, the restock work does look very nice if you ask me and if you plan on a slow restoration of this gun you should have something perfect whenever you are done.

Thanks for posting the pictures. It is an absolutely lovely gun and should be really nice to shoot some pigs with whenever you do take it hunting.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #88621 - 10/11/07 06:26 AM

www.briley.com/articles/grampas_shotgun.html

Try this!!

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: DoubleD]
      #88641 - 10/11/07 12:13 PM

Thanks for your comments.
I love my rifle but when I see some of the rifles posted here I feel some envy. LOL

Another rare thing on this rifle is the rear sight that only have three folding leaves without a standing one.



As the closer sight is 100 yds I suppose that for shorter shooting they use pointing aiming.
Any opinion or experience?

Thanks
Martin

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: beleg2]
      #88658 - 10/11/07 01:29 PM

What kind of proofs are there on the flat under the barrel?

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: DoubleD]
      #88678 - 11/11/07 01:22 AM

DoubleD,
I could not find any mark on the flat under the barrels.
At first I thought that was erased but I saw some rifles with marking only on the barrels ahead of flats. I really do not know, the only making I can see is what you can see on pictures I posted.

Thanks
Martin

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26597
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: beleg2]
      #88682 - 11/11/07 04:23 AM

Martin - the 'point-blank' sighting for very close or charging game, according to Forsyth, was taken down the rib. This pertained to muzzleloading double rifles. Since your double Snider is chambered for a fairly early ctg., it-too might have been sighted that way.
; Too - with it's 500gr.+ bullet of large diameter and relatively small powder charge, it's trajectory will be around 10" for 100 yards. This may be why the first blade is set so high. It therefore is possible that a sighting taken over the sight's lump, might give close to perfect bullet placement at 25 yards or closer. You will have to try it out to see whwere it shoots and with what load.
: Paper patching is sometimes a useful method of making an easily aquired mould work for you in a slightly oversize bore. Of course, different thicknesses of paper are available with the standard double wrapp. As long as the slant of the paper is different than the rate of twist, it should work. Butternick Notions patterns runs very thin, with various weights of printing paper running thicker, of course.
: BTW- lubed wonderwads, with a thin tablet-backing card to protect the powder from the lube, work well in most ctg. guns, accuracy wise. With a paper patched bullet, you may also need a lube wad, but eperimentation will show what's needed. Walter's vegetable wads have successfully been used by many shooters now, and they also are available from www.trackofthewolf.com in appropriate sizes - maybe, depending on your bores, of course.
; Good to hear you're not getting bullet migration in the .58. It's the first shot from a clean bore that usually causes movement in th eother bore as fouling then helps hold it against the powder. With proper engraving in the lands, the bullets should hold at any time. A friend of mine has the same gun, and shoots patched round balls in it with healthy powder charges. He re-crowned the muzzles as when purchased, they were rather sharply chamfered and didn't allow loading a tight enough combination. Emery cloth underneath the thumb rotating the barrels frequently, works wonders on too-sharp crowns.
; Good luck and keep us posted on the Snider's shooting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: W.Richards .577 Snider [Re: DarylS]
      #88693 - 11/11/07 08:43 AM

Daryl,
helpimg as usal !
Thanks for the info, I could never underestand the reason until now. Thanks.
I would like to try regulation a little before investing in a special mold, so Im reloading some cases with two bullets, the "paradox like" I mention on another post and some 20ga solid slugs recised to .600".
The charge will be 50gn of FFFg and a active wad of 25gn of powder and the same volume of corn meal. Coyote from Britishmilitaryforum give me this charge.
I had bad luck with wads because some of them stick with the bullet part of the way to the target.

I had to do the same to my Kodiak as have some patch cutting.

Thanks
Martin

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