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pistolchamp
.224 member


Reged: 27/02/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Texas, USA
my "new" H&H double rifle
      #94391 - 16/01/08 02:12 PM

Yesterday, I was shopping for a specific type of 9m/m handgun ammo and found myself at Bass Pro Shop in San Antonio, Texas. We have a condo in San Antonio and I was getting it ready for a new tenant.

I did not know that BPS had a fine gun department, but, low and behold they do. I was checking out a few of the many double rifles they had when a really nice old hammer double got my attention.

It was an excellent condition Holland & Holland 500 Express, serial number 14399. They said it was made in 1892 and I have no way to verify that until I hear back from Holland tomorrow.

The action is a super tight underlever, with excellent blue and near perfect bores and perfectly functioning extractors. The triggers are tight and work well with excellent crisp breaking.

As some of you know I have a large ranch in Tanzania and I intend to get this old girl back up and hunting again as soon as possible.

Here's the rub... NO ammo. I need help, brass, bullets, some advice as I have never owned a black powder gun of any kind and have no idea where or how to start.

By-the-way, the price was ridiculously low. The "fine guns" manager told me his boss said to get rid of that old thing as quickly as possible. I instantly put a down payment and raced to the bank to get the cash to finish the deal. The gun is now mine. I'll post pics as soon as I can put it down long enough to take some.

Someone PLEASE HELP me.

Thanks

Edited by pistolchamp (17/01/08 02:31 AM)

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philbert
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Reged: 31/12/07
Posts: 45
Loc: INDIANA,USA
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: pistolchamp]
      #94398 - 16/01/08 03:11 PM

Greetings! sounds like a good one i would love to see pics. buffaloarms.com has brass, as for bullets i use 440 gr but you will have to see what your gun likes. Bob,K.

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: philbert]
      #94408 - 16/01/08 05:27 PM

Congratulations! I think that I saw this rifle on their website - i was surprised that they had DRs too!
Kynoch has a 3" and 3 1/4" Nitro for black load and they may be a starting point to contact for advice. These loads suggest that 440grain bullets are made by Woodleigh and you could buy brass directly from Kynoch at least.
You can always get alot of advice from Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" too
Hope that helps

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: pistolchamp]
      #94421 - 16/01/08 11:16 PM

Congratulations pistolchamp,

If you are an experienced reloader you should be able to master the .500BPE. You should start by buying and carefully studying Graeme Wright's book, Shooting the British Double Rifle, which should be found at Amazon, or at Huntington's.

Dies, brass and shellholder can be had from Huntington's. You'll need the big Forester trimmer, or an RCBS trim die.
Given the length of this cartridge you may need to buy another reloading press with enough gape to accommodate it. The Lee Classic Cast Press is an inexpensive way around this problem.

It will take experimentation to find the correct bullet weight for the gun to regulate, unless it is engraved on the rifle itself. For cast lead, 340 grains was usually standard. These rifles are pretty finicky about bullet weight. They want only what they were regulated for, but when you find that out, you are there.

You may find good success with paper-patched bullets. I am using an interesting paper-patched formula that is actually easier than casting bullets. (Using the Ranier 335 grain swaged copper plated pistol bullets, paper patched).

Unless the chamber length is engraved on the rifle you should do a chamber cast to make sure of the cartridge length. You also need to slug the bore, as there was some variation.

Ross Seyfried wrote an article about loading the .500BPE which I found very helpful. If you want to send me a PM with your mailing address I would be glad to send you a photocopy of that article.

Loading nitro-for-black powder loads is quite different from loading conventional modern ammo. You cannot rely on pressure signs exhibited by the brass or primer. These cartridges operate well below pressures showing such signs. Get a firm understanding of low pressure and the use of wads before you try anything. Otherwise you risk ruining the rifle.

Contact me if I can be of help.

Curl

P.S. If you would like to have a look at my Purdey .500BPE follow this link: Curl's Purdey .500 .


--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (16/01/08 11:19 PM)

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pistolchamp
.224 member


Reged: 27/02/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #94450 - 17/01/08 04:53 AM

More info.

H&H got back to me. The gun was sold new in 1891 to a Mr. Dalton. It is a 500 express designed for the 3 1/4" ammo.
With a 13 3/4" pull, open hammers, extractors, plain rubber butt pad, lever actuated forearm (splinter), basic engraving (in other words... not much), plain walnut (if this is plain I want some more).

They could not tell me if the 500 Nitro Express brass was the same as the 500 BPE brass that was original for my gun.

If it is I have a source for brass and bullets. I'll just load it with black powder and be done.

Please help, I really want this old girl to have a chance to hunt again.

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: pistolchamp]
      #94524 - 17/01/08 06:39 PM

My understanding is that the 3 1/4" NE brass is the same but with thicker walls (less capacity inside) but please don't rely on this. If it is the same, then brass will be easy to find given the number of NE rounds that are 3 1/4" necked down...

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #94526 - 17/01/08 07:20 PM

I would like to get a rifle like that or another 450 Black for Nitro.

I am envious of your good fortune. Keep us informed about your progess.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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pistolchamp
.224 member


Reged: 27/02/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: mickey]
      #95280 - 27/01/08 11:22 PM

I found all I needed at Huntington's in California. Brass and bullets were my problem and now its solved. Brand new brass and some 460 and 550 grain gas check bullets to try. I'll load them over black powder or Pyrodex 'til my book arrives so I decide whether to try smokeless loads or not.

I will be in Las Vegas for the SHOT Show and now know that Bass Pro Shops has a "fine guns" department in that store also. You can bet that I will check it out.

I stopped at BPS on IH-30 east in Dallas yesterday and they had never even heard of a fine guns room... so I bought a couple of fishing rods, reels, lures and line for the campi in TZ... using the rewards card from buying the H&H rifle in San Antonio, thank you BPS!

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3495
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: pistolchamp]
      #95283 - 28/01/08 12:47 AM

Missed Curl's post in my first pass, all good advice. I can only add that there are a number of 440gr thin-jacketed soft-points around that will suit that chambering, although they are probably better with a 'nitro for black' load. In Australia, Woodleigh and Bertram offer 440-grainers.

The 550gr pills mentioned above are too heavy by far.

As mentioned above, read Wrightie's book cover-to-cover when it arrives, to avoid damaging a golden oldie or risking personal injury.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by Marrakai (28/01/08 12:59 AM)

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #95288 - 28/01/08 01:17 AM

Well well well.

It does not surprise me that bozo said to "get rid of that old thing". What a steal! Good for you.

Is black powder allowed in Africa?

I've never owned a BPE rifle but, if I did, I'd try to get it regulated with black first. Correct me if I'm wrong. You can't hurt a 500 BPE with black and a 440 grain bullet.

Cast performance bullets have a .511 435 grain FN gas check that would probable be a great killer.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Bill_Cooley
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Reged: 14/12/06
Posts: 197
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: pistolchamp]
      #95333 - 28/01/08 03:06 PM

Quote:

I found all I needed at Huntington's in California. Brass and bullets were my problem and now its solved. Brand new brass and some 460 and 550 grain gas check bullets to try. I'll load them over black powder or Pyrodex 'til my book arrives so I decide whether to try smokeless loads or not.

I will be in Las Vegas for the SHOT Show and now know that Bass Pro Shops has a "fine guns" department in that store also. You can bet that I will check it out.

I stopped at BPS on IH-30 east in Dallas yesterday and they had never even heard of a fine guns room... so I bought a couple of fishing rods, reels, lures and line for the campi in TZ... using the rewards card from buying the H&H rifle in San Antonio, thank you BPS!


When you get back from having a ball in Vagus try the Bass Pro in Grapvine. I know they have a "fine gun" room. You can spend a whole afternoon between Bass Pro and Cabela's just down the road.
Bill

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pistolchamp
.224 member


Reged: 27/02/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Texas, USA
Help requested again [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #96596 - 12/02/08 09:22 AM

Okay, I've got bullets, brass, primers, pyrodex and black powder. So there is no doubt that I can make up some ammo that will work as designed.

I would like to have information on loading smokeless powder in this ammo. I have tried and tried to find one of Graeme's books and they just do not exist. Amazon, Huntingtons, and at least a dozen other places all advertising the book and none have it.

Can anyone give me a couple of starting loads for this ammo using 460 or 550 grain bullets. I understand that the 550 grain bullets may not stabilize in the 30 inch twist barrels, but, I'll try it as I have a tendency to be quite lucky.

I hope my luck holds out and some of you can get me started with smokeless powder.

Thanks to all!!!

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3495
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Help requested again [Re: pistolchamp]
      #96621 - 12/02/08 07:36 PM

pc:
Assuming the cartridge is .500 x 3 1/4 Express (straight case), then you should start with 72gr Hodgdon's Varget and a 440gr thin-jacketed or hard-cast bullet. Wad-up to fill the air-space, either foam, saddle-felt, or a big ball of dacron.

That load is 'factory-equivalent' for the 3-inch case, so be prepared to add a couple more grains for the extra case capacity. Hopefully the extra 20 grains of your 460-grain bullets will not make a significant difference, otherwise they will want to shoot slightly apart. Pressure should be well below 10 tons.

Use a chronograph, and don't exceed 1850 fps without really sitting down and thinking about what you are doing!



...and chuck those bloody 550-grainers away! The rifle has already been proofed!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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pistolchamp
.224 member


Reged: 27/02/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Texas, USA
Thank you very much! [Re: Marrakai]
      #96645 - 13/02/08 08:29 AM

I know my beautiful rifle will enjoy this new load.

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Collath_500BPE
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Reged: 30/08/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Europe, Austria
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: pistolchamp]
      #96664 - 13/02/08 05:05 PM

Pistolchamp,
here is a pic of your needed ammo
Regards Johann [image]http://[/image]

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3495
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #96669 - 13/02/08 10:38 PM

Holy Sh!t!!! N-for-B loads in a red-and-yellow box???

That's a nasty compromise. What happened to the Kynoch colour coding of Red & Green boxes for Black Powder loads, Red & Blue for N-for-B loads, and Red & Yellow for full nitro? I don't like to see penny-pinching when it potentially jeopardizes safety...!

What are they thinking...?!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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pistolchamp
.224 member


Reged: 27/02/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Texas, USA
Collath you are a cruel master [Re: Marrakai]
      #96687 - 14/02/08 04:54 AM

Okay smarty pants, now that you've peeked my interest and caused me a completely sleepless night, where do I get some of this nice yellow and red boxed ammo?

I am a FFL dealer and have no problem ordering it.

Best regards

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #96691 - 14/02/08 05:11 AM

Similar to when they started changing all the shotgun shell case colours... Change for change sake ain't good

Seriously though, how much of safety issue is it really? Its not like putting the full nitro 570grain loads in the black powder boxes. Anyway, how many people do you know that don't check and double check what they are stuffing into a fine double ? Or any rifle for that matter. If someone just looks at the colour of the box then they deserve their darwin award when it all goes pear shaped!

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50Calshtr
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Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #96717 - 14/02/08 10:35 AM

Pistolchamp,
Don't worry so much about getting Wrights book, you NEED to get a copy of Ross Seyfrieds article, if you need, I can mail you a copy. With all due respect, (a great deal by the way), to Marrakai I wouldn't use a bullet heavier than 440 gr in this rifle, they were set up for 340-380 gr bullets. If you do get Wrights book please be very carefull about using the duplex loads he mentions, they can very easily get out of hand, and to be honest, they spook me. KIK 2F will give you all the horsepower you need in a straight black powder. You'll find it far easier to get a regulating load with 4198 as Ross recommnds than with black and at lower pressures. Remember, you are but a temporary custodian of this rifle, I know you really want to hear it go bang asap but please slow down and do it right.
As for the new packaging I'm with Marrakai 100%, somebodies going to blow up a rifle when they drop a NE load in a rifle thinking it's a NFB cause they didn't read the label.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #96721 - 14/02/08 01:22 PM

50cal,

I don't think Marrakai was suggesting the use of bullets heavier than 440gr.

Quote:

...and chuck those bloody 550-grainers away! The rifle has already been proofed!



I take that to be pretty clear.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #96743 - 15/02/08 12:19 AM

CptCurl,
On 12/02/08 at 0736 he wrote "Hopefully the extra 20 grains of your 460 grain bullets will not make a significant difference, otherwise they will want to shoot slightly apart." That's a couple of lines before your quote above. In theory I agree, the heavier bullets will shoot apart but in practice the rifle is being asked to shoot a heavier bullet than it was designed to shoot. Would it work? Possibly, but Pistolchamp will probably find a regulating load faster using a lighter bullet. In my two 500s I use 340 & 375 gr bullets over 53 & 54 gr of 4198 with 13 gr of dacron with excellent results. I've also spent the better part of two months helping a guy reassemble a nice double after he fired it using loads that were far too hot, splitting the stock and bending the tang, trigger plate and parts of the locks.
On another note I'm interested to hear about your success using paper patched handgun bullets. I tried some about a year ago with fair success but haven't had time to do more with the idea. I did find that the patchs wanted to slip on the bullets until I rolled the bullets over a course file before patching. Another avenue to explore when time permits.
Have a good one.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #96804 - 15/02/08 11:13 PM

50cal,

I agree heartily that no bullet over 440gr. should be used. I didn't think Marrakai was advocating anything different. I focused on his advice to throw away the 550's and overlooked the passage you noted.

I can say this. My .500BPE is a fanatic about bullet weight. It wants 340 grains. It will not shoot a 360 grain bullet - they are apart and cannot be brought together within my sense of a reasonable load. I have never tried a 440 grain bullet in it, nor have I tried the 440 grain NfB factory load. Frankly, I can't imagine how the 440 grain load would regulate in my rifle. If I had some of those bullets I would try just for the information.

I have a LBT mould custom made at 340 grains which shoots in my rifle.

I recently bought a box of the Cast Performance 350 grain WFNGC bullets (Midway USA Product # 817445) and plan to try them. I suspect they will shoot apart in my rifle. I would think this is a good bullet for the average .500BPE. I am yet to shoot them as I am recovering from an injury and surgery to my right shoulder. Others should try them too. This may be a great first try for the shooter who started this thread.

Mostly I am shooting the swaged lead copper plated bullets from Ranier, paper patched (335 grains). It's so much easier to paper patch these ready-made bullets than to cast a bullet, add a gas check, size and lube.





The paper patched bullets shoot absolutely clean, and my rifle was made for PP bullets, "Bullet - hollow or solid, papered & greased":



I do nothing to roughen the Ranier bullet. My patches stay put, but they promptly peel from the bullet just past the muzzel, as they should. Recovered fragments and pieces of patches show perfect sealing and no slippage.

If you are concerned about the patch leaving the bullet at the muzzle, worry no more. They are supposed to do that.

If you read Paul Matthews book (which you probably have) you will note that he is more worried about factors causing the patch to stick to the bullet.

I would like to hear specifics on your loads for the .500BPE.

Best,
Curl

P.S. 50cal, I didn't mean to sound abrupt in my prior post. Pardon me if I did.

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (16/02/08 12:30 AM)

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pistolchamp
.224 member


Reged: 27/02/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Texas, USA
Kynoch ammo [Re: CptCurl]
      #96845 - 16/02/08 10:04 AM

Thanks for getting my hopes up... Kynamco dashed them without delay. They are sold out of the NfB 500 Express ammo and will not be making more. The demand was slow (although they sold out) and the corporate decision is not to go there anymore.

I asked if they would share the recipe and they told me that the powder they used was "blended" for them in England and was not available to reloaders.

The specs were quite impressive. 440 grain soft jacket bullet at 1,900 fps... that's a stout load, enough for nearly anything I'd like to shoot with this gun.

I'll go it on my own, after over 45 years of reloading I am certain that I can get this job done.

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500Nitro
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Re: Kynoch ammo [Re: pistolchamp]
      #96847 - 16/02/08 10:18 AM



Pistolchamp

Enough people load the 500nfb who can duplicate the Kynamco load any day of the week - you just need to ask around.

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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: my "new" H&H double rifle [Re: pistolchamp]
      #96849 - 16/02/08 10:25 AM

CptCurl,
Those paperpatched bullets look great, hope they shoot as well as they look.
I'm using cast bullets in my 500. Bullets are a 340 ground nose from an NEI mould and a 370 gr hollow point from a modified Lyman 515141. My current best load is the 370 HP, 54 gr IMR 4198 and 14 gr of dacron with a large rifle primer. Puts six into a ragged hole at 50 yds. My 577/500 uses the same except 52gr of 4198 and a mag primer. The 577 case seems to need the mag primer in both this rifle and my 577 3", I think due to the larger interior area of the bigger case. The 500 case does fine with standard primers. I also have moulds for 400 and 450 gr bullets, may try the 400 at some later time.
If either you or Pistolchamp want to try either of these bullets let me know what size you need. I'm using .510 in the 500 and .512 in the 577/500.
Let me know how the LBTs and Cast Performance bullets work, I've been wanting to try the same. The 350 WFNGC should shoot in your rifle with a slight adjustment in the powder charge but as we all know each rifle is a case unto itself. Hope they work for you, I understand they are about the best hunting bullet you can get for these velocities.
Pistolchamp, keep us posted on how you're doing. Be sure to get a copy of that Ross Seyfried article, it was in the Oct/Nov 2002 "Handloader", best on the subject.
Best to both of you guys.

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