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hoppdoc
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Loc: Southeastern USA
BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES??
      #61675 - 25/08/06 01:35 PM

If you were given the task of determining the best newly manufactured ENTRY LEVEL heavy Double for Africa you could buy off the shelf for Dangerous Game--yes,Buff and Ele ,the big Stuff--

What exactly would you choose? Why would your choice be better than the other rifles?

A Merkel due to its lower cost sans ejectors?
A Searcy?
A Chapuis with ejectors?

What rifles would you look for on the used market vs newly maufactored for less than 10K?

The folks at Champlin Arms stand foursquare behind the Chapius, others say the Merkel is more available,cheaper used, and it works.

Gentlemen--What are your basic requirements and preferences for the best entry level heavy Double??

Thanks to all who respond!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61678 - 25/08/06 02:28 PM

For me, out of the newly made DR's, it would be a Searcy every time.

Why?

Because he builds one hell of a rifle for the price, They are stocked just for you so you know they will fit, they are very accurate, his warranty IMO cannot be beat, Butch is a stand up guy, and his rifles are near bulletproof according to those who own them.

I remember Butch mentioning that he had a few DR's that came from his now closed SA operation that he would restock just for you and sell at a reduced price. I do not recall the price that he said they were going for but I think that it would be worth a call to him to discuss.

My second choice would be a Chapuis as long as it fit me.

For the used market I would try to find an English DR that was in good shape with good bores. I believe Champlins has a couple DR's in the sub 15K bracket but they aren't in 470. There is a 450 #2 Sauer Clamshell at Champlins that may merit a look but I think it was a bit heavy.

Good Luck




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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: bulldog563]
      #61681 - 25/08/06 03:42 PM

Hopdoc,

I would jump on one of those rebuilt Searcy's that Bulldog mentioned. Restocked to fit you with Butch'r warranty at yesterday's price. Thats hard to beat. I think they are all in 470, which would be my choice for the easy to aquire ammo and cases. If you have a choice, I would have it regulated with Federal ammo so you know you can get ammo that will shoot for you.

You will end up with a good working rifle, in a calibre that will do well for buff or elephants and that you can get ammo for in Africa, if it comes to that. Hard to beat that!

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61682 - 25/08/06 03:44 PM

New, entry level, and .470. OK.

1. Heym. Nicely finished. Decent sights. Beavertail can be converted to a splinter. Somewhat better weight distribution than the Merkel. Can be ordered with a pancake cheekpiece. Has ejectors, but might be able to get it with cut-off switch; if not, ejectors can be deactivated. Action smoother than the Merkel. More expensive than the Merkel, but worth it. PH is a particularly good value.

2. Merkel. Not as nicely finished as the Heym. Poor sights can be replaced, and a pad added for not a great deal of money. Don't have to pay for tits on a tomcat (ejectors). Good, functional rifle for the money.

Unless something new appears on the market, I'd pick one of the above two.

The Chapuis UGEX in 9.3 is a really nice package and a fine bargain, and is my pick in that caliber. However, the larger bore Chapuis suffer from poor geometry, and price beyond the value offered.

For a used .470 under 10K, it would just depend on what I could pick up. A British rifle in that caliber worth having, barring a blindman deal, will be $20K, not 10.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #61687 - 25/08/06 05:58 PM

Hpppdoc
I have fired a Heym 470, a Krieghoff 500/416, A Merkel 470 and two ,500 Merkels, a Searcy 500 and 3 different Chapuis 470's. I have seen owners of these new made doubles shoot them as well.

All have shot very good.

I would not hesitate to hunt with any of them in 470.

I have put more rounds through the Chapuis than the others. all 3 of them shot great.
[I own a Chapuis 9,3x74R and a British 450 No2 and a British 450/400 3 1/4" and have fired several other British doubles in the 470 class].

I would recommend you take a look at the Heym, Searcy, Merkel, Krieghoff, and Chapuis and get the one that you like/fits you the best.

Shoot it about 2000 [2 thousand] rounds.... Hunt deer and wild pigs, maybe a black bear or two over bait, with it for a few years...

Then buy it [and you] a ticket to Africa.

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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61697 - 26/08/06 01:38 AM

Hopp:

I own both a .500 NE Merkel and a .577 NE Searcy.

A Searcy has the BEST warrant in the business. Period. Anything happens to it, Butch fixes it. As JPK mentioned, Butch has some guns in .470 that are at last year's prices.

I love my Merkel, but I really love my Searcy.

Look hard at the Searcy. Give Butch a call. I doubt you will find any other company where you can call and speak to both the owner of the company and the person who will make your gun.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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Grizzly
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Reged: 05/12/05
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Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: clark7781]
      #61699 - 26/08/06 03:04 AM

If you go with Searcy, get the no recoil option Clark got on his 577 .

You might also want to follow Clark and get the "doubling" switch, which you can use on unsuspecting friends shooting your double .

Seriously, under $10k really limits things in the "new" category. The Heym PH is a great entry level rifle in 470 (Mine is an 88B Safari). I settled on the Heym Safari because it had standard features that were extras on all the others, plus the rifle fits like a glove. Tony even liked the fit. I have not shot the PH model.

For today, under $10k, I would go with Searcy. His rebuilds are all in 470, and you cannot beat his warranty or service.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: Grizzly]
      #61705 - 26/08/06 05:50 AM

How much does the Heym PH cost?

A Merkel .470 can be had for about $7,600 or thereabouts, new.

What about the Searcy, how much does it cost?

I think the Merkel is by far the least expensive, and good value for the money. If I'm not mistaken, the Heym is about $5,000 more. That's better than a 65% increase over the Merkel.

My point is, you can't lump all these rifles into the same category. The Merkel is by far the least expensive. You have to start there and then justify additional features to decide if the Searcy or Heym is your choice.

A couple years ago I bought a Merkel .500NE just for giggles and grins. It's a hell of a lot of gun for the money. Is it the best, most refined double rifle I own? Heck no! Do I think it is perfectly adequate for hunting? Heck yes! I killed a white tail with it last fall, in fact.

Mine has one aggravating feature that has developed. The safety sometimes pops on under recoil (and there's a lot of that). I'll have to get that fixed. Obviously one would not hunt dangerous game with that condition. Maybe if I had paid $5,000 more for the Heym this wouldn't have been a problem, but nothing is fool-proof. I know for a fact it can be fixed for little or nothing. (And I still have my $5,000).

Pay your money and take your choice. Just don't judge them all on the same scale. From what I know, if I could have bought the Heym for the same money as my Merkel, I would have bought the Heym. I think it is a slightly better build. Is it $5,000 better? You decide. I already made my decision.

Curl





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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Peterb
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Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288
Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #61716 - 26/08/06 01:27 PM

Searcy. PH model in 470 is $10,500.

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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
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Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61717 - 26/08/06 01:37 PM

I have owned a Merkel 470, a Heym 375 and a Chapuis 9.3x74r. I currently own the Merkel which should tell you which one i valued most. I believe the Merkel to be the most cost effective purchase in doubles today. I even like the square sights. They are quick and I can see them. The main point is They (Merkels) are what 'I' like the question is what do YOU like. That's the only question that has a meaningful answer.

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Chasseur
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #61730 - 26/08/06 04:51 PM

I would second 450no2. Go out and handle and shoot as many of them as you can and see what YOU like. There are subtle and not so subtle differences between Searcy, Merkel, Chapuis and Heym.

I own and Chapuis 9.3 UGEX and I like it. Its a basic rifle and nothing fancy, and I've had to make some "adjustments" to it through owning it. But they handle well and are well regulated by the factory. As 400NE said the larger bore Chapuis are not as well put together as the medium and small bores. I've shot a and handled some big bore and medium bore Merkels and I like them too. Searcy and Heym also have their fans so its hard to say.

But what I like might not be what you like so its good (and fun!) to look and handle as many as you can before making a decision. Its time and money well spent.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
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bonanza
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62309 - 09/09/06 09:56 PM

I've have/had a Merkel (.375) and a Chapuis. The Merkel handles very nicely, but is a bit light for my taste in a 470, but is ideal in the 375. The Chapuis is just plain goofy. I could never get it to mount properly and it recoiled hard and I really hated that forearm. I now have a heavy British double that is more pleasant to shoot.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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new_guy
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: bonanza]
      #62317 - 10/09/06 03:40 AM

Stock fit is certainly important, but too often the fit of guns that can be "stocked to fit" are presented as if they only offer one set of dimensions.

The Merkels you find will have one set of dimensions (they charge about $1300 extra for custom dimensions.)

Chapuis will stock the gun to fit.

HEYM will stock the gun to fit.

The most important thing is to know what dimensions you need and you can specify them when ordering a gun to fit YOU.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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JohnTheGreek
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: new_guy]
      #62354 - 11/09/06 04:25 AM

I hesitate to bring this up....but....It seems like Butch's warranty gets a whole lot of press so I guess I will. Knock on wood and God forbid anything like this should occur but it seems to me like Searcy's company is effectively a one man show. Given this, should anything happen to Butch, that great warranty that clearly exists now and everyone enjoys is pretty much out the window as the company itself may or may not survive such an event. In contrast, a Chapuis, Merkel or Heym will ALWAYS have an place to be serviced, provide parts, re-stock, ship a new case or perform warranty service since the company itself is not reliant upon pretty much one guy to keep the orders coming in and the guns going out to customers with a high level of confidence in an established builder.

Again, not trying to be morbid or wish ill on anyone but just pointing out the way I see things when it comes to warrantys from small businesses. Incidentally, this doesn't just pertain to Searcy but more than a few other European DR builders I know of.

JMHO,

John

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EricD
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #62355 - 11/09/06 05:19 AM

That's an interesting point John. And definately one that is often overlooked.

Erik

Ps. Hope all's well down in Pyramidland.

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bonanza
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: EricD]
      #62366 - 11/09/06 08:52 AM

Forget the 470, looks like the Heyme 88BPH is offered in the glorious 450NE. That would be the new gun of my choice for in the 10k range.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Bonde
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: bonanza]
      #62391 - 12/09/06 01:16 AM

I've got a Merkel .470, and I'm very satisfied. I had a gunsmith to do some work on the triggers, and ended up with a very nice handling DR. It now has a trigger pull weight of about 4 pounds, also the "fangs" has been adjusted aswell, so it won't double because of recoil (unless I let the finger go back and pull the second trigger myself..) It regulates nicely, within 50mm at 50m if i manage to hold steady.. And I dare say it's worth every penny I spent..! I might've been lucky getting a good rifle, as Merkels seem to be a bit uneven qualitywise...? Mine wasn't perfect, but very good beeing a working double, and for a low total cost!

Here in Norway we don't have the choice of Searcy's splendid DR's , if I had, it would be my first choice. I recon they are better than Heym and Chapuis. As for guarantee, NO guarantee is better than the firm issuing them. When Butch Searcy gives such a guarante he is very confident that he doesn't sell crap..!

The best DR's are the old british ones, no doubt, but they are out of my financial reach (and most others too?), so they are just no alternative for most of us. No entrylevel double should be compared to them...........

Find out how much You can spend, and look for the best buy for money! A new one would probably be a searcy? In my example I found it to be a Merkel that had hardly been used ,and with upgrades, for less money than a new standard. I guess some shop for a rifle before they find out it kicks too much.. Be sure to try one first

Caliber: Choose a caliber that are not to obscure.. .470 has great secondhand value. A .450 does'nt.. The 450 is cheaper to shoot as you use the .458 bullets. Thats about the only advantage I see about the round compared to a 470. The chamberpressure is higher than the 470..

We are probably on the top as to popularity to doubles. It has never been more doubles around than now, and the standard of living is very high. I belive we've seen the top of it, and I don't expect there will be a market for other calibers than the most common ones in "entrylevel doubles" some years from now. We'll probably have .400or 416R .470 and 500, perhaps 577. That's my guess. For vintage guns the situation is different..

Mine is in 470, and I know that it will be easier to sell if I choose to move up to a .500. The thought has struck me more than once

To sum up:

Find yourself a double that is well worth the price regardless of make, and you're more likely not to loose money on it if you later choose to sell it.Find one that fit you well, regardless of make, and you'll be able to shoot it aswell It is an entrylevel double, so no one should expect it to be a fine british best gun that will increase in value.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill

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Showbart
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Re: BEST ENTRY LEVEL 470 DOUBLE--PREFERENCES?? [Re: bonanza]
      #68789 - 05/01/07 02:56 AM

Quote:

Forget the 470, looks like the Heyme 88BPH is offered in the glorious 450NE. That would be the new gun of my choice for in the 10k range.



Whoa! Show me a Heym PH in the $10K range? $14-14.7K new is more like it.

I really want to hear more from those who know about the ergonomics of the Chapuis big bores. Especially as it compares to Merkel big bores. The only thing that keeps me from jumping on a good deal on a used Merkel and is that I'm hung up on ejectors.

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