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Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards
      #21566 - 01/12/04 11:04 PM

Strictly a curiousity question on my part.

Out of Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards which is seen as the most desirable.

Also, if there was some of 1 to 10 scale you could apply.....on a desirability basis.....how do you rate

H&H, Purdey, C&H and WR.

Thanks,

Mike

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mickey
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: Mike375]
      #21571 - 02/12/04 02:07 AM

Their is no comparison. WR is by far the more desirable maker. If WR is a 10 than a Coggie would be a 4 IMO. I have seen some really nice small bore Coggie shottys though.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: Mike375]
      #21578 - 02/12/04 03:06 AM

Westley & Coggie are in no way comparable, Westley being much more desirable.

As to rank - Purdey, Holland, Westley, then Coggie. Economically, Purdey and Holland are the more desirable. For my own personal use, I would probably prefer Westley.
------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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webley
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: Mike375]
      #21579 - 02/12/04 03:15 AM

Mike,
As Micky said there is no comparison.

To be fair though - some C&H guns are very good indeed BUT they produced many guns that by their design were less than attractive, added to that the fact that C&H quality (within whatever price band) was far more variable than that of WR for example.

The best thing about some of the 1950's 60's C&H guns is that they were made by W&S (thus were fine).

General comments are one thing but ranking makers by scales or tiers is something I avoid.

Regards
Webley

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lapsub
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: mickey]
      #21592 - 02/12/04 10:27 AM

greetings

i currently have both a cogswell & harrison and a westley richards.

so i have no pride-of-ownership issues re them.

and i agree with all the rest of you, westley richards is much more desirable than C&H

although i don't own an H&H nor a purdey (darn!), i agree that they are much more desirable than C&H and even WR......which is kind of ironic since westley richards invented the anson & deeley boxlock action, named for two of their employees & directors, john deeley and william anson.....

regards

lapsub

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: lapsub]
      #21594 - 02/12/04 12:48 PM

I'm not a brand name snobb, and that is good for me! When I find a nice double rifle, the maker is only an indication of what I'm going to have to pay to get it!

Haveing said that, I do collect Westley Richards doubles, both shotguns, and double rifles. The reason is, I found my first two WR rifles at quite bargain prices, and just let that be the start of a collection. Amoung Britt double rifles I find I like the WR better than some that cost more to buy, and sell for higher prices. NOW, if I could have any double rifle I wanted, it would,probably be a H&H ROYAL 500NE, over just about any other name. They are very costly, but there are double rifles that are more reasonably priced that are just as good, for what I use a double for! HUNTING!
Here let me say I have many doubles that are Europien, and the best ones are German. I find these rifles to be very well made, and the regulation is almost always perfect. The draw-back to the German doubles is the chamberings. They tend to be smaller bore size, intended for Deer,bear and boar. The britts are usually larger chamberings for Africa, and India.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #21595 - 02/12/04 01:15 PM

It is interesting that Purdey is at the top of the tree but the perception is that H&H is at the top of the tree.

Another question for you blokes.

If you could only have one double rifle and the choice was between a new Searcy and a used English double "at the same price", which would you pick.

If you picked a used English double over the new Searcy what brand of English double would you be likely to get.

Mike

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: Mike375]
      #21597 - 02/12/04 01:51 PM

MIKE , I answered that in my last post, but didn't even consider the Searcy because the questions were about Britt, and Euro doubles. My pick would be a Used Britt, if they were the same price, and the Britt was in fine shape. That wouldn't be a hard decision, if you had only one rifle, and you wanted an investment. However, if I wanted that one rifle for strictly field work, and Travel hunting, then the Searcy would get my nod. Of course if I lived in OZ, or the UK, then the cost of the Searcy wouldn't be worth the hassel of government BS. As long as I live in the USA, the Searcy would make far more sense, for a useing rifle! You see, I don't disrespect any double rifle because of where it is made. For my use, a double rifle is a bought, and never sold, aquirement! If a rifle is good, and well made,I couldn't care less where it was made, and I will certainly not pay a premium for a double based on where it was made! Some of the best double rifles I've ever owned were bought for less than $1000US, because the owner didn't know what they were, or how to get ammo to shoot them, and most were German made. Most were war souveniers from WWII. Sufice to say, I like any well made double rifle!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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mickey
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: Mike375]
      #21598 - 02/12/04 02:07 PM

I guess your question is a new Searcy for $11,000 (I think) or a used Brit Rifle, similiar caliber. For instance a 450-470.

I would buy a used British Rifle that I would be much happier with than a new anything else. Searcy, Merkel, Chapuis etc.

For that price , today, you could buy:

A John Wilkes 470 with 360#2 barrels. Refurbished in Belgium with European type case colours. In very good condition.

A Jeffery 450#2. Original condition with new leather case. 90%.

At least a hundred 400 3" or 450/400 3 1/4 by various makers, all quality. You would probably get some change back here.

At least two 9.3x74R that were rechambered by Brit Makers from 400/360. Change back here too for a set of Shotgun barrels.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #21601 - 02/12/04 02:28 PM

Guys,

I've been watching this thread develop, and it is an interesting discussion.

I have never owned a C&H. The ones I have seen have ranged in quality from so-so to excellent. I've never shot one and can't comment on that.

Likewise, I've never owned a Westley Richards. I've seen some to die for, and I've seen some that were obviously just working guns. I don't think I have ever seen a WR double rifle I would call poor quality.

However, last year I set out to buy a Westley Richards 20ga. sidelock ejector. I paid the price and received the gun on a three-day approval. It was represented to be just like new, and it was. But it must have been one of those made during the very hard times of the British trade. The fit and finish was absolutely horrible. This was not from wear or poor handling, mind you. An Arrietta 557 would put it to shame. I was shocked, and sent it back. Likewise I have seen H&H guns made during the low point that look bad.

My point is much in agreement with Dugaboy1. One must carefully evaluate the gun you are holding in your hands. The name means something (maybe it's mostly an indication of how deep you will dig in your pocket, as Dugaboy1 said), but the most important thing is the quality of the gun itself.

As names go, I think without a doubt Westley Richards commands higher respect than Cogswell & Harrison, all other things being equal.

Finally, I have never owned or shot a Searcy either. I have a hard time warming up to the lines, though. The action is kinda like a shoe box with balls on the side for bolsters. At the same price, I'll take a sound English gun over that. My current production .500 Nitro Merkel 140-2 is pretty ugly too. But to my eye the lines are better; more traditional than the Searcy. I'd take the Merkel at the same price, but in fact, it cost less.

Just my most humble and admittedly uninformed opinion. Thanks for listening (or reading)!

CptCurl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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AussieMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: CptCurl]
      #21616 - 02/12/04 09:08 PM

I've got a C&H 375 H&H Flanged and a couple of WRs. I definitely prefer the the WRs because they are lighter for calibre.

I've got a couple of "best quality" WRs and a couple of the basic trade models. I must confess I really get off on the lower grade guns because i suspect that they were owned by someone who really needed them and used them and I like to think of them being carried daily in the African bush or Indian jungle - especially my .470.

For the same reason, I'd go for a Brit rather than a Searcy and pre WWII even better pre WWI and I am happy to pay a premium for a proven provenance. Not necessarily someone famous but someone I can try and trace for example one of my guns dating from the 1890's has a Praetoria address in India ink on the case so I know its seen use on buck (it's a .303) and I'm having lots of fun trying to trace the history of the original owner.

But, I get a bit of fun out of my spaceage German 300 Win Mag bullpup (26.5" barrel in a 33" package) with a 4-12x56 'scope.

Buy whatever you like at the time - you can always sell it and even if you lose a bit, think how much you saved by going to the range etc compared to playing the pokies or, as we say in Oz, pissing it up against the wall.

mike

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: Mike375]
      #21640 - 03/12/04 04:05 PM

Pre-war British every time. Much better value for the money. From Purdey, Holland and Rigby down to the no names, they all "bought in" double rifles from the trade. Simple matter to learn how to recognize the Webley & Scott and Harry Leonard stuff, no matter who retailed it. Damn solid stuff, and you don't have to pay for a name unless you just want to.

CptCrl:

The British makers all built some guns during the 1950s - 1970s that they're still trying to live down. Some were really bad - it was a tough period for 'em. Maybe its a good thing that they were building so few new guns during those years.
------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #21646 - 03/12/04 11:03 PM

400NitroExpress,

Yes, I am aware of the "low point" of the British gun trade. That WR shottie I mentioned was certainly one. I've seen H&H shotties that weren't much better. We can all be thankful that the quality is now returned, even if we can't afford the product!

I definitely agree that the pre-war stuff is head and shoulders above.

Regards,
CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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unspellable
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: CptCurl]
      #21657 - 04/12/04 03:32 AM

It has been my impression that Cogswell & Harrison are a retail outlet and did not make rifles at all. Their rifles were bought in from the trade with their name placed on them. If they were obtained from more than one source that might explain variability in quality.

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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: unspellable]
      #21663 - 04/12/04 05:58 AM

There must be very few (if any??) other products where the percentage difference in price between the most expensive representations of the product and than the average is so great.....say 600 or 700 Nitros from Purdey or H&H Vs Model 760, Rem 700 and Ruger 77

Mike

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mickey
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: Mike375]
      #21669 - 04/12/04 07:59 AM

In reply to:

There must be very few (if any??) other products where the percentage difference in price between the most expensive representations of the product and than the average is so great.....



How about Women? The fit and finish is just as desperate and they all basically do the same thing.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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lapsub
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: unspellable]
      #21672 - 04/12/04 09:05 AM

sorry, but you're quite wrong re cogswell & harrison just being a retailer that puts their name on other maker's guns.

C&H is in fact the oldest gunmaker in london. been there for 234 years, since 1770!

you might find their official company history interesting: "Cogswell & Harrison: Two Centuries of Gunmaking", by Graham Cooley & John Newton. Published by Sportsmans Press in september 2000.

i have only one C&H at present, i am sorry to say, and while it is not as nice as my westley-richards, i wouldn't hesitate to buy another C&H.

certainly C&H used bolt actions from the mauserwerke when they built bespoke turnbolts, as did john rigby and H&H. and perhaps they outsourced some other parts too for some models. but C&H has been every bit as much of a gunmaker as WR or H&H.

regards

lapsub

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470Rigby
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: mickey]
      #21710 - 05/12/04 09:43 AM

Mick
In reply to:

The fit and finish is just as desperate and they all basically do the same thing:




Love the analogy ! Trouble is the morning after! Waking up next to some old slapper, mascara running down her cheeks, hair all over the place, wrinkles where they shouldn't be, lipstock smudged - well as they say - you'd chew your arm off if it was trapped - just to get away!

Bit like finding youself, in the cool light of day - in possession of a Coggie!

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mickey
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: 470Rigby]
      #21712 - 05/12/04 10:00 AM

In reply to:

Love the analogy ! Trouble is the morning after! Waking up next to some old slapper, mascara running down her cheeks, hair all over the place, wrinkles where they shouldn't be, lipstock smudged - well as they say - you'd chew your arm off if it was trapped - just to get away!



Speaking from experiance?

I never went to bed with an ugly woman, but I sure woke up with a bunch.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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AfricanHunter
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: Mike375]
      #21713 - 05/12/04 10:01 AM

I have had both. Far more Westleys than C&Hs. The Westley is head and shoulder over the C&H, from form to workmanship. Now, I am talking about Pre WWII as I have not looked at enough post wars. However, I doubt it changed. If a Purdey is a 10, and H&H 8.5 or 9 (some are bad about shooting off the face), I'd give a Westley HD droplock, 7.5 or better (because of the Westley "C" style lockup), then a Coggie about a 1. C&H varies a lot, some didn't have even a dolls head, much less a good third fastner on the action. I once knew where there was a beautiful C&H sidelock .450/400, but the guy couldn't sell it for boxlock price of a Westley because it was made after the war.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: 470Rigby]
      #21722 - 05/12/04 10:52 AM

.470:

That was rough. Accurate, but rough.
--------------------------------

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JudgeG
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: Mike375]
      #21746 - 06/12/04 12:08 AM

At present, I have three double rifles. A C&H .475 3 1/4", a new Searcy PH model in .470 and a Westley-Richards boxlock in .450/400 3 1/4".

The C&H is a tool. Nothing more. It shoots 2.5" at 66 yards and as pretty as a 2x4. It works just fine, though. 480 grain Woodleigh's at 2150 fps.

The Searcy is like a Land Cruiser... well suited to it's purpose, which is day-in and day-out shooting of dangerous game. It is very, very accurate, shooting better than an inch at 50 yards, and with really stout loads (500 grain Woodleighs at 2250 fps). It is not particularly shapely, but has really nice wood. It is bulky and muscled up looking, like a quarterhorse... as opposed to an H&H sidelock (a throughbread??).

My Westley-Richards..... Just try to buy it from me and you'll see my opinion of it.

I really don't understand some of the comments about the C&H here... Maybe it's just my limited experience, but if a 100 year-old rifle will still shoot well, is tight on the face and comes to shoulder to suit me... Somebody must have done something right back when Winston Churchhill was between jobs?

--------------------
JudgeG
Old and getting older, I hope. But once I was young.

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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: mickey]
      #21749 - 06/12/04 12:35 AM

Mickey,

How could I have forgotten about women.

By the way, did you blokes see that 600 Nitro Purdey on the auction sometime ago for $295000US.

With the dollar exchange, import duty and GST that baby would be about $520,000AUS landed in Australia.

Mike

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: JudgeG]
      #21776 - 06/12/04 09:35 AM

Judge:

I thought the 3 1/4" you got was a Dominion, or am I just remembering that wrong?

How was your ele hunt? Hope you make it to Dallas.
-------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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JudgeG
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison Vs Westley Richards [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #21804 - 06/12/04 10:48 PM

No, not a Dominion... and I forgot I also have a .375 Express 2 1/2" Coggie, too?

I posted over on AR about the elephant hunt... or at least, the first day.

--------------------
JudgeG
Old and getting older, I hope. But once I was young.

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