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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re-proofing
      #40058 - 30/10/05 04:00 AM

If you have a rifle re-chambered, say from 458 to 450#2, would you also have it re-proofed?

Would you buy a rifle that had been re-chambered that has not been re-proofed?

Would you buy a rifle that has been made by a gunsmith on a shotgun action that has not been proofed?

Would you pay the same for an un-proofed re-barrel or re-chamber as you would for gun built as is.

Just curious.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Re-proofing [Re: mickey]
      #40060 - 30/10/05 04:27 AM

will give the owner two proof cartridges, he proof the gun and when it survive I will buy it

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Re-proofing [Re: mickey]
      #40062 - 30/10/05 04:37 AM

Those are some great questions. The answers should be obvious but aren't.

If I were to have any gun rechambered I'd reproof the gun. The problem is there is no standard here in the US for doing so, thus most all of this is done on your (our) own. I mean there is no proof on factory rifles in the US so if you say you never buy a gun that wasn't proofed you'd never buy a domestically built gun.

The shotgun action question especially interests me. I say that because I'm currently working on my 5th DR that I've built on a shotgun action. Now I do my own proofing to the point I feel more than comfortable shooting them but I'm not sure I'd want to buy someone else’s conversion (unless you know them and their work). Just because there is no formalized proofing system.

As far as paying the same again it goes back to the work done I suppose. As far as I know none of the larger shops have a formalized "proof" for their guns on rebarrels in bolt guns so why should we expect it in a DR?

As you can see I don't really have answers just giving a few of my thoughts on the topics.

BB

Edited by banzaibird (30/10/05 04:40 AM)

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Re-proofing [Re: mickey]
      #40064 - 30/10/05 05:22 AM

Good question with possibly flexible answers.


First off, I wouldn't buy a smithy's bench made DR-on-shotgun action before observing the manufacture of the proof load cartridges and firing of said cartridges -by the smith- himself.

I think I like that idea and will store that one aside for future excercise if the opportunity ever comes up.

I wouldn't pay as much for a sleeved/rebarreled/rechambered for different cartridge gun as I would for a good, in-proof and in-shape original specimen.


Now, as far as rechambering and reproofing goes, there are BPE guns out there that have had thier chambers cut to take modern (available) brass and should never be run with full house nitro loads let alone full proof nitro test loads... that I would happily have in my rifle rack -- and would only run Nitro-For-Black or black powder loads with appropriate weight and designed bullets for said BPE class loadings.
I wouldn't want anything like that sacrificed to full proof test nitro loads.


Get my drift there?

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Re-proofing [Re: mickey]
      #40065 - 30/10/05 05:30 AM

I would buy an otherwise nice double in .458 only if I was certain that there was enough meat in the barrels to rechamber to .500/.450 or .450 No. 2 - and the rifle would need to be really cheap. I would have it re-proved in England.

Same would apply to a rifle that had been rechambered but not re-proved. Depends on price, quality of the work, and how much sense the project made to begin with. I would still have it re-proved. Double rifles aren't bolt rifles.

I wouldn't buy a gunsmith-built DR on a shotgun action.

The last question is a little narrow, but no. To me, double rifles of good original quality that have been re-barreled or re-chambered to a desireable caliber, and properly re-proved, are never worth as much as a double of equal quality in the same caliber with original barrels in excellent condition - not even close. If they haven't been re-proved, the price drops some more, and would have to be low enough to justify the risk of proof failure.
---------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Re-proofing [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #40069 - 30/10/05 06:45 AM

Mickey,

I think that a rifle which falls under any of the categories you listed is a shooter only, and will never have any collector value. I would buy one if the price were right and I did not plan on selling it for a long, long time. Otherwise, it may be hard to get the dollars back out of the gun. The same holds true for any factory rifle that has been modified.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Re-proofing [Re: mickey]
      #40071 - 30/10/05 07:39 AM


If you have a rifle re-chambered, say from 458 to 450#2, would you also have it
re-proofed? YES

Would you buy a rifle that had been re-chambered that has not been re-proofed?
NO

Would you buy a rifle that has been made by a gunsmith on a shotgun action that has
not been proofed? NO

Would you pay the same for an un-proofed re-barrel or re-chamber as you would for gun
built as is. NO

Mickey,
Some of these questions are arbitary as it's really only the US, Australia and a few others
you can get away with this. Like a Cogswell & Harrison 375 2 1/2 rechanbered to 375 Fl Mag.

Each to their own.

500 Nitro

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Re-proofing [Re: 500Nitro]
      #40083 - 30/10/05 11:21 AM

I own a 458wm Marcel Thys sidelock. I bought the rifle at a price that would allow rechambering to 450NE 3 1/4" and reproofing and still leave considerable room compared to the same rifle, or one similar, originally chambered for a comparable rimmed cartridge. (this rechambering is, according to JJ, the most suitable for just about any rifle originally chambered for 458wm, since the action width of the typical 458wm double does not suit 450NE #2 etc)

I would shoot, without hesitation, a rifle rechambered by JJ, even without reproof. Not so someone I don't know. But I would reproove my rifle if I had it rechambered. I would buy a rechambered, but unprooved, rifle subject to reproof or at a significant discount without contingency.

One thing to keep in mind is that if you find the otherwise right rifle but in 458wm, it may be discounted a whole lot more for the calibre than the worst case cost of rechambering, reregulation, reblueing and reproofing. Mine was. Worst case cost last I talked to JJ and best I recall was about $1700. The chambering in 458wm also gives you a significant bargaining point, and the owner might be sensative to it.

I buy what I like and don't sell too much. Still, I hate thinking I'm in the red, too much at least. I think it takes quite a nice rifle to make a rechambering even begin to make sense. But, as I've said before, if my rifle had been in 470NE, I probably could not have afforded it.

By the way my rifle has performed flawlessly as a 458wm.

My 2 cents worth.

JPK

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Re-proofing [Re: JPK]
      #40089 - 30/10/05 12:27 PM

First to those in the US can you explain the process for sending a gun to get re-proofed? Who does it? What paperwork do you need for shipping/import/export? Are there places that will handle this for a fee? What kind of fee are we talking about?

Now to ask a question of those that said they wouldn’t buy a DR built on a shotgun action. What if it was made on something like the Merkel or JP Sauer that used the same action on DR’s as on their shotguns? I’m not talking about cutting and using the old barrels but making an actual monoblock for the rifle barrels then you can still use the shotgun barrels?

BB

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Re-proofing [Re: banzaibird]
      #40090 - 30/10/05 12:40 PM

Re Reprooving. I don't recall the fee, and its different for different countries. I would have my rifle reprooved by the same proof house that originally prooved it, ie, London or Birmingham in England, Beligian,.... There are firms that do this in the regular course of business. Griffin and Howe are one, and I think JJ at Champlin's too. I think its a couple of hundred bucks per gun all in.

On the shotgun actioned rifles, its my understanding that the actions are hardened differently. But I don't really know.

JPK

Editted: PS, I have a pair of English shotguns somewhere between here and London being reprooved. It does take some time.

Edited by JPK (30/10/05 12:42 PM)

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Raff
.300 member


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas
Re: Re-proofing [Re: mickey]
      #40091 - 30/10/05 12:55 PM

Mickey;
A very interesting set of questions and, for me,
very timely. I just bought a DR that was rechambered from
.425WR to a 450/400 case trimmed to 2 3/4" and shooting
the original 410gr. bullet. It is not re-proofed. I would
like to get it proofed in the future, but I don't think
the English proof houses will even do wildcats. I paid
about 25% of the price this gun would sell for if if was
still an original.

500grains; I think your post is right on the mark.

As for a DR on a shotgun action. No thanks. Proofed or not.
Raff

--------------------
.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3503
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Re-proofing [Re: mickey]
      #40093 - 30/10/05 01:18 PM

Very interesting hypotheticals, Mickey, though not so hypothetical to some of us!!
I shall attempt to add a bit more of a parochial Australian perspective to 500Nitro's somewhat succinct comments:

As many of you will know, I already own a double rifle built by someone else on a shotgun action. I happily shoot and hunt with this firearm without a hint of doubt that it is up to the task, for several reasons:
1. I know the gunsmith, Rolph B_, who built the rifle, he has made several and there has been no problem with any of them to my knowledge.
2. I know the fellow who originally commissioned the rifle, Les O_, and he is no fool. He bagged either a scrub bull or buff with the rifle before passing it on.
3. I know the chap who bought it from Les, and from whom I acquired it, Tim_ had used some heavy loads of fast powder to boost performance, without detriment to the rifle.
4. I know that the uniquely Australian (?) practice of proofing the firearm by firing a full load with a heavily case-lubed cartridge, at the very least, would have been adhered to in the first instance. Right or wrong, this is generally believed to increase the back-thrust by 15 to 20%. Once I had settled on a regulating load I did the same. Passed with flying colours.
5. That other accepted Australian practice of shipping the gun for inspection and test-firing prior to the sale also allowed me to take a good look at the workmanship and critical dimensions before giving it the nod.

Without all these ducks lined up, however, I may have been a little reluctant. If I didn't know the maker or previous owners, or suspected any impropriety, no way!

Regarding rechambering, I believe each case must be judged on its own merits (pardon the pun!) Ruining a nice .360 by rechambering to 9.3 is in most cases a travesty in my view, however rechambering from .458 to one of the .450 NEs could be viewed as a salvation! Upping .375 NE to .375 Flanged Magnum is more of a grey area !

I would probably be content with a .458 rechambered to .450 without reproving, as I would do it myself as specified above. If the dimensions of the gun were generous, and the price was right, I would be prepared to take the risk as both back-thrust and peak pressure should be lower than the original chambering. Regulation is another matter, either it regulates with the new chambering or it doesn't! Probably a 50/50 chance in the case of the .458 to .450 conversion. If I was unable to test-fire the rifle, price would have to accommodate the worst case scenario, ie re-regulation.

This response ended up a bit long-winded, apologies. Should have gone hunting today instead!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Re-proofing [Re: banzaibird]
      #40094 - 30/10/05 01:23 PM


In reply to:

Now to ask a question of those that said they wouldn’t buy a DR built on a shotgun action. What if it was made on something like the Merkel or JP Sauer that used the same action on Dr's as on their shotguns? I’m not talking about cutting and using the old barrels but making an actual monoblock for the rifle barrels then you can still use the shotgun barrels?



Banzaibird

Just because someone can make it doesn't mean they can make it right. Even rifles from companies that have been building them for hundreds of years fail proof occasionally.

Judson appears to know what he is doing but you can't assume that everyone does.


--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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nopride2
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: Re-proofing [Re: mickey]
      #40096 - 30/10/05 02:09 PM

458 Win to 450 3 1/4 is so close dimensionally that I wouldn't worry too much about proof in a sound well built rifle. The lower pressure of the 450 31/4 should provide a generous safety margin.

Dave

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Re-proofing [Re: nopride2]
      #40099 - 30/10/05 02:25 PM

Marrakai,

JJ, who does a number of the 458wm to 450NE 3 1/4" rechamberings also sugest a 50/50 chance that a rifle rechambered from 458 to 450 NE 3 1/4 " will need reregulating.

JPK

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