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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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Matt_Graham
Sponsor


Reged: 26/02/04
Posts: 602
Loc: Australia
Greener Shotty
      #97052 - 19/02/08 09:45 PM

A friend was thoughtful enough to put some money down on a WW Greener shotgun for me today. He called me and said "If you dont want it I will have it"!! That's what friends are for right??

Anyhow it is a standard Empire action boxlock - no engraving, very nice timber apparently. It is marked 'F17'. I have seen the standard "E" guns but I dont know what the F is - can anyone shed any light on this? It will take a while to get my hands on the gun to show any photos...

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au

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jvw
.300 member


Reged: 15/05/08
Posts: 100
Loc: Australia
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #105303 - 16/05/08 06:04 PM

Looks like your friend was lucky enough to find a reasonably high grade Greener.

The F stands for Facile Princeps (translated as "easily superior"), Grrener's own patented boxlock action design. It was very close to the Westley Richards Anson & Deeley design and was the subject of a pitched high court battle over alleged patent infringement in the late 1800's, but WW Greener managed to make it stick and built many (if not most) of his high-grade boxlocks on similar actions.

The 17 is the original price of the gun in Guineas.

Does it have ejectors? Some were fitted with Greener's own Unique ejectors which can be an absolute bitch to repair if something goes bust!

Post the serial no and I may be able to dig up the year of manufacture for your friend.

Regards

JvW

PS: What's its condition?

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3521
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: jvw]
      #105310 - 16/05/08 08:17 PM

Well, yeah, maybe....

Quote:

Anyhow it is a standard Empire action boxlock...



A Facile Princeps is not likely to be mistaken for an Empire gun.

My money is on a mis-stamped or worn 'E' for Empire-grade.

A photo would clear this up, Matt. Either way, you're a dunce if you don't grab the gun!



Hey, G'day jvw, BTW. I've just ordered Graham Greener's book, since we Aussies are finally trading well against the green-back. Under a hundred bucks delivered at last! Can't wait to get into the firm's history, having owned a few of their guns over the years. Great hardware, don't yer reckon?!

O&BTW, speaking of being "an absolute bitch to repair", try Empire main-springs, since they double as the cocking rods!!

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jvw
.300 member


Reged: 15/05/08
Posts: 100
Loc: Australia
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: Marrakai]
      #105515 - 18/05/08 10:44 PM

Marrakai,

You will enjoy Graham Greener's book, I promise!

I own a nice 1930's vintage JV Needham boxlock 12-gauge as well and just in case anybody claims English guns are just not worth it, well, they are full of it!

JV Needham was the first guy to invent ejectors back in the late 1800's and WW bought his business in order to be able to offer the "novelty" of ejectors to his clients. Grrener's continued to offer guns under the Needham name right up to WW II, and as a bonus they were generally of the better grades. My own gun, for example, cost 35 Guineas in 1935, so it is quite a svelte-looking boclock (interestingly, with Southgate ejectors)!

I just came back from a weekend of super-quality wingshooting near Viljoenskroon in the Free State Province over here. Nice, heavy bag of yellowbill ducks and a neat double of Swainson's Francolin over pointing dogs. Life can be good over here sometimes, in spite of all the other obstacles in the way...

Interestingly, a friend of mine owns an absolutely stunning Greener .30-06 facile princeps double as well as an absolute mint 1900 "G" Grade 12-bore Pigeon Gun. Heaven...

Regards!

JvW

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3521
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: jvw]
      #105692 - 20/05/08 11:08 PM

Perhaps we're hijacking this thread, but Matt did say 'Greener Shotty' in the title-bar (..and he's out bush somewhere at the moment!) So...

When the book arrives, I'll be very interested to date the best Greener in my collection: SN #4566X. A lovely 12-bore 2 1/2-inch BP ejector game-gun, also G2-grade, cased with leather trade-label and full accessories. Points like a wand. Marvellous!



I really do need to take some decent photos of this gun!


Ha! Just slapped myself and looked up the SN in Nigel Brown's Vol.2. Made in 1896 or 1897. Sadly, I'll never see the original records as the ledger containing 43857 to 47902 is missing! Damn!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by CptCurl (03/07/10 10:29 PM)

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jvw
.300 member


Reged: 15/05/08
Posts: 100
Loc: Australia
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: Marrakai]
      #105806 - 22/05/08 04:37 AM

Marrakai

I had a quick look this afternoon and it looks like your G was made in 1897.

By the way, Greener's provide a comprehensive service i.r.o. records and lettering of individual guns, so they should be able to provide you with a proper "birth certificate". Last time I checked the cost was £ 25-00.

Hope it helps!

Best

JvW

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9dot3x74R
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/10
Posts: 97
Loc: Tasmania
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: jvw]
      #156854 - 18/03/10 05:14 PM

I just did a dumb thing and bought a Greener shotgun, sight unseen over the phone. Dumb dumb dumb dumb.

Oh well.

It might be ok.... it was cheap.

I think it may be serial number 72438. It may be a grade F. 20.

I haven't seen it yet, and probably won't for a month.

Can anyone fill in the blanks, with this small amount of information?????????

Yes, I shall order the book.... any suggestions for a good source?

--------------------
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
It arrived !!!


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9dot3x74R
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/10
Posts: 97
Loc: Tasmania
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #156860 - 18/03/10 08:23 PM

I found this little table of s/n's.....

W W GREENER 1878 19304
W W GREENER 1880 22860
W W GREENER 1895 38917
W W GREENER 1902 50911
W W GREENER 1915 58536
W W GREENER 1920 62621
W W GREENER 1930 68635
W W GREENER 1967 79259

--------------------
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
It arrived !!!


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sbs470
.333 member


Reged: 15/04/04
Posts: 378
Loc: Sheffield Tasmania
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #156861 - 18/03/10 08:47 PM

Phil
I've got the book.

Come over Saturday afternoon and well check it out.

good shooting

sbs470

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: sbs470]
      #162587 - 23/06/10 08:05 AM

Here you go.

This is a WW Greener E10 ( Empire, cost 10 Guineas new )
1 Guinea = 1 Pound
The Ficile action is not easilly mistaken for the Empire.
The first attempt by Greener to make an affordable pattern action with interchangable parts.
Intended for export to the Empire Hence the name.





Enjoy

Nitro

PS: The book is a great source of interesting information.

This serial is # 601** which dates it to 1917

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by CptCurl (03/07/10 10:31 PM)

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Paul_416
.224 member


Reged: 23/11/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: nitro450exp]
      #162614 - 23/06/10 06:42 PM

Actually a guinea is one pound one shilling. Horses, hand made suits and the finer things in life were sold in guineas.

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Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Greener Shotty [Re: Paul_416]
      #162638 - 24/06/10 01:35 AM

Yes, Paul 416,
the reason for the extra shilling, we were always told, was that it covered an auctioneer's commission.

Sotherby's and Christie's would think themselves hard done by if that was all they got now

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