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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Bighammer
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Reged: 14/06/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Next one up from a .375 H&H
      #33123 - 15/06/05 05:06 PM

All assistance and advice is greatly appreciated here.

I've been considering getting a true big bore rifle and seem to feel that if I was getting something bigger than a .375, it'd have to be a .45 or bigger. I feel that a .416 wouldn't offer considerably more. Yes, 100 grains more bullet but only half as much again as a 500gr .45 calibre! Go the whole hog I say!

A Ruger Magnum in .375 H&H is my pride and joy at the moment and feel that the same rifle chambered for the .458 Lott would make a great pair. Am I going over the top here?! I really don't see a need for anything bigger than a .375 but that's not why I'm talking to you good people! I just want one!! Is the .458 Lott too big in a bolt action rifle? I'd like to keep my shoulder intact and be free of headaches too!!


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33128 - 15/06/05 05:59 PM


Welcome

Am I going over the top here?! NO

I really don't see a need for anything bigger than a .375 but that's not
why I'm talking to you good people! I just want one!!

IF NEED was the basis we make buying decisions on, none of us
would own any of the Big Bores

Welcome to the club !!!

458 Lott is fine. Their is a difference between 404/416 and 458.

You'd go 404 / 416 for Nostalgia reasons but 458 Lott is far better than
458 Win Mag.

Good luck.

500 Nitro


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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33140 - 15/06/05 11:53 PM

If the .375 H&H is already in your battery and you're adding one bigger, if it were a bolt gun, I would second the .458 Lott.

If it were a double, I would go all the way up to .500 NE 3".

If the Lott is too big for you, I would not go with the .458 Win Mag. The .416 Rigby would be my choice.


--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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davem3
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Reged: 10/02/04
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33142 - 16/06/05 12:11 AM

You can always load the .458 Lott down, hard to load a smaller caliber up. Dave

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rgp
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Reged: 17/06/04
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33159 - 16/06/05 05:29 AM

If a .458 Lott is initially too nasty to shoot you can always load it down and slowly work your way up, stopping at whatever level you find comfortable or tolerable.

Several zoos, parks, and wildlife agencies issue .458's to their employees and for some of those employees it may be the first rifle they have ever used...and when the nature boys are filming the highly deceptive programs for television to show how harmless wild animals are, there is usually someone with a loaded .458 on the set out of the field of view of the cameras.

The .458 Lott is probably the practical choice but I'd go for the .416 myself, merely because I've never had a .416.

Richard.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 500Nitro]
      #33285 - 17/06/05 04:00 PM

500Nitro, (I like the name!)

I did consider the .404J purely for the nostalgic reason but it really doesn't even offer as much as the .416 Rigby or Rem. The .450 Rigby Rimless would be fantastic but I'm not able to afford to be quite that nostalgic as yet!!

THe .458 Lott seems to be the logical one.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: rgp]
      #33286 - 17/06/05 04:04 PM

rgp,

I've never owned a .416 either but I have shot a .416 Rem and it wasn't at all unmanageable. If I were thinking of a .416, the Rigby would be the one.


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rgp
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33336 - 18/06/05 04:18 PM

bighammer,

Me too, because the .416 Rigby is "the" .416 and may be the only .416 that is older than I am...the other .416's are "new"...as are most of the .458's. For some reason I find cartridges younger than I am to be rather creepy and unnatural.

Richard.


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Bighammer
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Reged: 14/06/05
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Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: rgp]
      #33456 - 20/06/05 04:30 PM

I'm a bit of a traditionalist too. However, as time marches on, there are going to be more and more cartridges that are younger than us! Being a subscriber to the view that there is no substitute for cubic inches, I like big cases and I like performance that is achieved easily without rivet-popping pressures. The "older" cartridges do that comfortably and with modern powders and projectiles, given their capacity, they only get better with time.

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475Guy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33489 - 21/06/05 04:56 AM

Since I own al of these calibers, I'd suggest the 416 in any flavor, Rem. or Rigby. Shoot the hell out of it, reload and find out how much more you can do with it. If after you whack something with your biggest baddest loads and you're not satisfied, then get a 458 Lott. The 416 I have is the Rigby in a Ruger RSM, I've found that if I load it with 450 gr bullets @ 2250 f/s, I really don't need any bigger caliber. But then again, the Rigby has the powder capacity to bump things up a bit. The only thing holding anybody back is how much punishment you can take when developing big loads. Of course, what's need got to do with anything, anyways?





--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Edited by 475Guy (21/06/05 05:18 AM)


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Pottsy
.224 member


Reged: 28/05/05
Posts: 30
Loc: Oregon Coos Bay
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33491 - 21/06/05 06:27 AM

In reply to:

All assistance and advice is greatly appreciated here.

I've been considering getting a true big bore rifle and seem to feel that if I was getting something bigger than a .375, it'd have to be a .45 or bigger. I feel that a .416 wouldn't offer considerably more. Yes, 100 grains more bullet but only half as much again as a 500gr .45 calibre! Go the whole hog I say!

A Ruger Magnum in .375 H&H is my pride and joy at the moment and feel that the same rifle chambered for the .458 Lott would make a great pair. Am I going over the top here?! I really don't see a need for anything bigger than a .375 but that's not why I'm talking to you good people! I just want one!! Is the .458 Lott too big in a bolt action rifle? I'd like to keep my shoulder intact and be free of headaches too!!




Naa .458 is still to small . You already have a fine rifle in that .375 H&H It's a fine all around mid size bore rifle .
Have you thought about ? maybe trying somthing diffrent in a bullet design rather then go a larger bullet diameter ?

If you really feel the need to go a larger diameter for
big game dont play around go right to .700 Diameter
I will be happy to make the 850 or 900 or 1000 or even the 1200 Grain bullet's for it for you .
Now will that be jacketed or soild's .

Just buy a .458 Lott and be done with it ? Or you might think about the two new rounds the 400 H&H or the 465 H&H

Now that i think about it ? you might ? try this ? every great once in a while a preson can find a used 375 Weatherby
or 460 Weatherby for sale or even one of those 30-378 Weatherbys.

But hay just buy the 458 lott. I went out and picked up a ruger 458 win mag used not all that long ago for 700.00

I dont shoot it much my Marlin GS 45/70 is more fun .
as well as my BLR 50-110

Hard choise's are the most fun



--------------------
Owner PA Bullet's


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Mike_McGuire
.333 member


Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 348
Loc: Sydney Australia
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33493 - 21/06/05 06:45 AM

Bighammer

458 Lott and the reason being bullets, the 350 and 400 grain 45/70 bullets.

Have a look at a Hornady, Sierra and Speer manual and you will see 416 bullets are very thin on the ground.

Woodleigh also make a 405 grain flat nose.

The 400 grainers loaded back to around 2000-2100 with powders like 2206 is in the general recoil area of the 375 and smaller animals go down like they are electrocuted. I use to use the 400 grain Speer loaded to those speeds in the 458.

Also if you want to cast bullets (or have someone else do it for you) bullet moulds for rifle calibres abound in 30 calibre and you guess it....45 calibre.

One point on the 416 Rigby, the big cartridge does have a certain feel about it that just does not come with the H&H size cases.

Mike



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Pottsy
.224 member


Reged: 28/05/05
Posts: 30
Loc: Oregon Coos Bay
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33498 - 21/06/05 11:37 AM

Ahh Mike not all H&H






Boooommmm

--------------------
Owner PA Bullet's


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33500 - 21/06/05 01:08 PM

Bighammer

If it was me I would go for the .450 Rigby. Sounds traditional but is a new cartridge. Get a barrel made up for it in your chosen Ruger (if it fits the action - I haven't checked).

A .458 Lott would be more sensible though. Practically a factory round, powerful enough for anything.

Both use .458 calibre bullets so you have lots of choice.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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rgp
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Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 475Guy]
      #33513 - 21/06/05 03:41 PM

Regarding need for a big bore able to stomp a Tyrannosaurus into the dirt...

Technically there is plenty of need for heavy rifles, in virtually every country on earth. I've been on the receiving end of affection from a few very upset cattle and they can easily kill you as fast as any upset Cape Buffalo. Probably faster, since they were bred for meat production and when properly raised are more heavily muscled than any wild animal.

Given my personal experiences working with large animals since I started helping my grandfather feed the cows at about the age of six, I think heavy rifles should be mandatory equipment for anyone in the cattle business. Most large animal vets are armed with a .308 or a .30/06 but that is because veterinary supply houses sell tranquilizer cartridges in those calibres. Not certain if those rounds work in a standard rifle though and from what I've seen they take a discouragingly long time to have any effect.

Granted my opinion is probably highly inflammatory to a lot of farmers, ranchers, station owners, and hunters, but I've been uncomfortably close to getting killed on a couple of occasions and only managed to avoid it via a miracle. Those upset "domestic" animals did not calm down very quickly either. Almost everyone I've ever known who has worked with large animals for years has had a few similar experiences.

Most who read this are probably hunting regularly on properties with cattle present. Those large domestics are not always friendly and that should be kept in mind when deciding to pack a rifle designed for the specific wild animal you intend to hunt.

Richard.


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Bighammer
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Reged: 14/06/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 475Guy]
      #33514 - 21/06/05 03:46 PM

I haven't found the .375 H&H wanting for anything as yet so I doubt that a .416 of any description will fall short either. In .416 though, the Rigby is the only one for me.

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Bighammer
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Reged: 14/06/05
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Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Pottsy]
      #33515 - 21/06/05 03:51 PM

Pottsy,

If I were considering a double rifle, my only preferences would be either a .470, 500-465 or .500 NE. That's it!

In a bolt action however, a .458 Lott or .416 Rigby seem to be the logical and best choices.


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Bighammer
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Reged: 14/06/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33517 - 21/06/05 03:59 PM

Mike378,

I like your logic. A .458 would be more versatile with lighter and more sensible loads for the bulk of the shooting. I was heading in that direction till I read your last sentence! That buggered it up for me again!! I do love the Rigby name and the 'feel' and capacity of those cases. So now what?!

Maybe a .416 Rigby and a double...closely followed by a divorce!!


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Bighammer
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Reged: 14/06/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Pottsy]
      #33518 - 21/06/05 04:03 PM

Pottsy,

I am about to purchase a Sharps in 45-70. (I can see the smile on your face already!!) If I get into some heavy experimenting with bullets and loads, you're in business!

Might as well start giving me some ideas!


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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
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Loc: Sydney Australia
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33524 - 21/06/05 04:58 PM

Bighammer

The answer is NitroX's suggestion of the 450 Rigby.

But it will be more trouble.

However it would also be my own choice over the 458 Lott.

I have nver owned a 450 Rigby or Lott but I have owned two 460 Wbys and a good shooting mate had a 450 Ackley. As you probably know the 460 Wby and 450 Rigby are the same except the Wby has a belt. But there is a more important difference that favours the 450 Rigby and that is the 460 Wby has huge freebore which makes reduced loadings more difficult to work with.

The 460 and 450 do 458 Lott max ballistics like a walk in the park. They use a far greater variety of powders and just much better to play about with.

At the low end I use to use 28 grains of Dupont Hi Score 700X with 400 grain Speers in the 460 for just over 1300 f/s and accuracy was superb in both 460s. 85 grains of 4064 did just over 2000 f/s with 500 Hornadies with top accuracy (and no fillers in either load) and that 85 grain load was 20 grains below maximum with 4064 in the 460.

A 450 Rigby will give you full 458 Lott ballistics with every powder from 2207 through to 2213 and 2217.

Due to the lack of huge freebore where the 450 Rigby will be better than the 460 is for load that are at the higher 45/70 range. With a 460 you can come down a bit under 458 Win ballistics with beautiful results but once you go under that you get hangfires, unless fillers are used. So wth the 460 the next stage down is with shotgun powders and 1300 f's speeds with 400 grainers. But I don't think the 450 Rigby will be like this becuase of the lack of huge freebore, which causes ignition problems in the 460.

If we couldget the American Accurate Arms powder 5744 (I think that is the number) then the 460 would be OK at the higher 45/70 levels. That powder is made like a shotgun powder in that it is bulky and easy to ignite but had a burn rate about like 4227 or 2205.

Brass for the 450 Rigby is a bit inconvenient as it is a 416 Rigby necked up and improved. Probably the best bet would be to neck to 50 calibre and then run through the 450 sizing die which would form a little shoulder on the bottom of the neck. If 416s are necked straight up to 450 I don't know if the headspace will be OK or not as I have a feeling the body of the 450 Rigby is slightly longer.

But you won't need many cases sine 99.99999999999999999% of you loads will be at very low pressure.

To do a 450 Rigby in Australia I think I would start with a 416 Rigby in the Ruger. However, I would talk to someone like Bob De Vries about rechambering a 458 Ruger given the integral quarter rib etc. and his feelings on getting feeding right from 458 Win to 450 Rigby.

In a nutshell, the journey to 458 Lott is a lot easier and practical than the 450 Rigby.....but once there the 450 Rigby will be much better to have and play with.

Mike





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Bighammer
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Reged: 14/06/05
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33526 - 21/06/05 05:21 PM

Mike378,

Those were my feelings about the .450 Rigby. Here in Australia, most of the goodies are hard to get, if at all, and always with much running around. If .450 Rigby cases were readily available, there's no choice. Frankly, the .460 Weatherby never entered my mind.

The Lott, with its capacity, would do nicely for reduced loads. Really, does anyone put up with the recoil of regularly shot full-house Lott loads let alone stronger loads? Then again, full-house .416 Rigby loads aren't used regularly either.

I'm in Melbourne later this week and I just might talk to Bob about the possibility of a rechambering job.


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Pottsy
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Reged: 28/05/05
Posts: 30
Loc: Oregon Coos Bay
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33533 - 21/06/05 06:44 PM

you might want to think about a Bore Rider/Duo Diameter bullet's it lets you load super heavy weighted bullet's into
your rifle the front 1/4 of the bullet's riders on/in the bore .

this way you can load up 650 grain and 750 grain bullet's in a plain old 45/70.

And if you add to the a hollow cavitied bullet in the duo diameter it will also alow for a mushrooming effect at slower speeds in a super heavy weight bullet.

Just a thought

--------------------
Owner PA Bullet's


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Pottsy
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Reged: 28/05/05
Posts: 30
Loc: Oregon Coos Bay
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Pottsy]
      #33534 - 21/06/05 06:47 PM

Just one more note if i may ..

if you do go duo Diameter then you can go a step boattailed
rebaited bullet in a duo diameter.
that should help with shooting over distances but not much becouse of the speed drop using a super heavy weight

--------------------
Owner PA Bullet's


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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33535 - 21/06/05 07:16 PM

Bighammer

As to 450 Rigby cases making them from 416 will be easy.

Becuase the 416 Rigby has a very sharp shoulder you will probably need to go over s 45 expander plug first because to go to 50 in one go will probably mean mean the shoulder will collapse. By the way I am assuming the body of the 450 Rigby is longer which may not be the case. If it is like comparing a 270 to a 30/06 Ackley Improved then you will just neck to 450 and go shooting.

You would not need to worry about fireforming loads as 99.99% of your loads will fit the un improved case.

To cut a long story short the main issue is whether you would rebarrel a 416 Rigby or rechamber a 458 Ruger.

Bertram lists 450 Rigby which you can be fairly sure will be pure shit but you could by 20 just to have 20 450 Rigby headstamped case while you you do some day dreaming and cork sniffing

To get the full benefit of a 450 you want a get a muzzle brake, which can be removed. A 460 with full loads and the KDF type brake is more controllable than a 375 without a brake. For most of our shooting it is easy to put on muffs or plugs in the field.

If the 450 Rigby will equal the 460 then in a 26 inch barrel you can punch the 400 grain Woodleighs out out 2900 and the 350 Hornadies will crack 3000 f/s. Although the case capacities are the same I am mot 100% sure it will match the 460 with top loads. The only reason I say that is an aquaintance in America has the 450 Dakota (same capacity again) and his mate also has a 450 Dakota but neither will match the 460 at top loads.

Lastly, if due to brass etc you chamber to 460 you need to make sure the reamer used is top quality that is right on specifications for the freebore diameter. Wbys with freebore diameters that are too large can only be described as an excercise in hair pulling.

One other point, for some reason which completely escapes me, calibres like the 460 loaded back to 458 Win/Lott or 416 Rigby back to 416 Rem, 378 back to 375 etc seem to be much easier on scopes than the same ballistics generated from full pressure loads in the smaller cases. They also seem to shoot better off bedding that is not as good as it could be and also better from barrels that are only so so.

Mike









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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33559 - 22/06/05 04:47 AM

Bighammer

What you say is true for the once a coupla month shooter but if you use nothing but light loads, you tend to screw up when going back to full loads. When I first got my stuff, I had quite a few lighter loads for range time to accustom myself to a magnum length action and smooth out the rifles. At the end of every session, I'd bang off at least 20 rounds just to get nerve endings used to the heavier recoil. After all my rifles have been broken in, I don't shoot light loads in them anymore. I've found that by concentration on the rifle/load combination makes me a slightly better shooter knowing there's satisfaction at doing well with them.



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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