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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Best magnum rifle primer for large cases
      #148981 - 28/12/09 11:00 AM

Hi, I've got a 500 Jeffery, I was wondering what primers you folks tend to use in the larger cases (500 Jeff, 505 Gibbs, etc.) where one has to be very careful about loading density and ignition.

Thanks,

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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okguy
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: chuck375]
      #148982 - 28/12/09 11:06 AM

I have no experience reloading with Berdan primers, only Boxer type.
That said, try Federal 215. If you can't get those, perhaps CCI 250.
These are both large rifle magnum primers.

--------------------
Use a double rifle. It just feels better.

Member - Double Rifle Shooters Society

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chuck375
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: okguy]
      #148985 - 28/12/09 11:32 AM

Thanks, I'm currenty using Rem 9 1/2 M (large magnum rifle primers (Boxer)), but have heard both Federal and Winchester magnum rifle primers are hotter, so I plan to try them if I can find some either on the shelves or online.

Thanks

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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Homer
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: chuck375]
      #149044 - 29/12/09 09:10 AM

G'Day Fella's,

I've read somewhere that Federal 215 and CCI 250 (both Large Rifle Magnum) Primers are about equal and the Same?

Personally, I only use CCI 250's and Remington 9 1/2 M (another Magnum) Primers and have never had a problem! But then, my heaviest loading is only 80 grains of powder (80 x ADI AR2209 and 300gr .375 H&H)!
Hope this is of some assistance!

HooRoo
From
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: Homer]
      #149046 - 29/12/09 09:27 AM

I found some CCI Large Magnum Rifle Primers at the gun store! Couldn't believe it. I'll keep looking for Federal 215Ms but am going to do an A/B comparison with 3 different loads in my 500 Jeff.


Thanks guys, appreciate the help,

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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sbs470
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: chuck375]
      #149115 - 30/12/09 11:01 PM

I have just finished loading a batch not an hour ago.
120 grns of ADI 2209
535 grn Bertram bullet and Federal Mag primers. they work well for me.

good shooting

sbs470

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DarylS
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: sbs470]
      #149123 - 31/12/09 02:53 AM

While they may not produce a hotter flame, Fed 215's produce a longer flame front - apparently. In photo tests, there was less flame from the muzzle of the test piece with Fed 215's, but they do seem ignite very slow powders more effectively than the other magnum primers, therefore the 'time span' of the flame or flash becomes important.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_Ackley
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: chuck375]
      #149140 - 31/12/09 07:34 AM

Chuck,
I use Federal 215M's in my 500, in fact I use Federals, either 205M, 210M and the 215M in every calibre I load, currently 24 different ones.
Have never had a lot of luck with CCI's, but that's just my observation, doesn't mean to say they aren't any good.
I have found that Winchester Large rifle primers tend to work better for any cast bullet load in the calibres I load cast for. Don't know why, but the groups show a decided preference for Winchester with lead.
Just my 2 cents worth.

DC

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alexbeer
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Reged: 10/04/08
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #149147 - 31/12/09 09:12 AM

I have been using Fedral 215 Magnums in most things for years now, simply because they work.

I've used them in 500 Jeffery, 500NE, 450NE, 450/400NE, 404 Jeffery, 375 H&H Mag, 375 H&H Flanged Mag, 300 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag,and 30/06. (I know I didn't need them in the 30/06, but it was all I had at the time). I have never had the slightest hic-cup with them.

I couldn't get them once and worked the load back up in the 375H&H with Rem 9-1/2M's , same with the 30/06, although it was with RWS 5333's then, and it made no difference in my rifles . I've only done that with those two thought, and none of the others.

If you can get them, my first choice for the 500 Jeffery would be the Federal 215's , but if you cannot get them, Rem 9-1/2M's or CCI 250's would be a fair second choice. Certainly worth a try at least.

Happy New Year to all

Best

Alex

alexbeer.com

--------------------

Details matter!

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458ONLY
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Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: chuck375]
      #149350 - 03/01/10 06:59 AM

Quote:

Hi, I've got a 500 Jeffery, I was wondering what primers you folks tend to use in the larger cases (500 Jeff, 505 Gibbs, etc.) where one has to be very careful about loading density and ignition.

Thanks,

Chuck



In my personal tests in a variety of magnum cartridges, including the 458WM, I've found WLRM primers to be best at fully igniting heavy charges of whatever propellant. Formal tests done a few years back revealed them to be both hotter and longer burning than Federal 215 (which I had also extensively tried, as well as Rem 9 1/2M and CC!250). In both my 45-70s and the 458WM, extreme spread is always less than 10, and as low as 2! In fact, my favorite load for the CZ 550 in 458WM is the 350 TSX over 80grs of H4198 in Win brass and ignited with a WLRM primer(This load is for my rifle ONLY!). MV = 2753 fps with a standard deviation of 2! With the 500 Hornadys at 2200 fps, the standard deviation is 4!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Edited by 458ONLY (03/01/10 07:03 AM)

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tinker
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: 458ONLY]
      #149352 - 03/01/10 08:31 AM

I use WLR with AA powders in the .458
Very very consistent, very accurate loads, very little deviation.

In the big bottleneck cases (like the 450no2NE I use the Fed215 - nothing else does it like the 215 in those massive cases (for me) and I get super consistent, super accurate, super low deviation with that kind of combination...





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500grains
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: tinker]
      #149370 - 03/01/10 02:18 PM

F215 runs hotter than the rest.

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: 500grains]
      #149741 - 07/01/10 12:59 PM

Thanks all, just scored 2000 Federal 215s, couldn't find WLRMs anywhere. They should be here next week. Once the primers come in, I'll finish up my load development and shoot some 100 yard groups. I'm just looking for about 2150 fps with a 570g TSX, with good accuracy, good load density, and of course good ignition.

Thanks again,

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
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Loc: Germany
Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: chuck375]
      #153556 - 13/02/10 04:50 PM

There is a lot of differing info on which primers are hotter then others. From what I learned, that is not the main issue.

I stumbled over a research paper on primers once that cleared things up a bit for me: The researcher took pictures of the ignition flames and you could clearly see that Fed 215 and CCI 250 were related (short, but broad-based flame) while WLRM and RWS 5333 were related as well (long, thin flame). And in deed, at least in my caliber, I could substitute Fed 215 / CCI 250 and WLRM /RWS 5333 with almost no difference in results. The heat of the primer does not seem to be the only issue, but also shape and duration of flame. As particular powders react differently, especially across various case geometries, the heat of a primer per se cannot be the only concern - hence, one has to actually test what works best, and that may be a cooler primer.

Another research paper on primers plotted pressure and velocity as caused by various primers against ambient temperature, utilizing various powders. These were standard primers as well as magnum primers. At higher temperatures, the differences the primers made were very small and largely powder dependent. Only at lower temperatures did primer performance show large variations independent from the used powders. Interestingly, the Fed 215 was the only primer that kept its ignition power well into 'cold' territory, all others dropped of steeply as 0 degrees Celsius was approached. At 40 degrees Celsius, all primers showed more or less the same performance.

Edited by 404bearslayer (13/02/10 05:02 PM)

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: chuck375]
      #153616 - 14/02/10 05:36 AM

I just got off the phone with the chap who does my reloading and load developement. He reloads professionally. He suggested you use the Federal 215.

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Ripp
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #153620 - 14/02/10 05:53 AM

Quote:

I just got off the phone with the chap who does my reloading and load developement. He reloads professionally. He suggested you use the Federal 215.



I'll second that--acatully the only primers I use--tried some CCI's for my .204 last year when the Federals were in short supply--not sure what was up or if I just come across a bad lot--but had 4 misfires in 100 shots..very very seldom I can ever remember that happening in my 30 plus years of reloading with the Feds...

Having said that, I know others who swear by the CCI's...just didnt seem to work for my application on the .204 Ruger..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Homer
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: Ripp]
      #153634 - 14/02/10 08:23 AM

G'Day Fella's,

I have wondered recently, if there really is much difference between CCI and Federal primer products?

We all know how big business have "Efficiency Strategies" etc etc, so when Federal and CCI were consumed by the conglomerate ATK a few years back, did anything actually changed in the primer products of both brands?

Just on similar note;
I have been using CCI primers for decades and will continue to do so but I did note recently when loading up some .404 Jeffery reduced cast bullet (Von Gruff) loads (63gr ADI AR 2209 and 340gr (VG) Cast Bullet @ 1600fps) a very slight Hang-Fire with the (decade + old) CCI 250 primers as opposed to Remington 9 1/2 M primers?
This may be just old primers or who knows what may have caused this?
I elevated the muzzle of the loaded rifle to settle the powder against the back of the case, prior to leveling it on the target.

Just a thought and I don't want to start any rumors, it's just that we all know how big business works!!!

HooRoo
From
Hommer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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450_366
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153636 - 14/02/10 08:47 AM

Quote:

Another research paper on primers plotted pressure and velocity as caused by various primers against ambient temperature, utilizing various powders. These were standard primers as well as magnum primers. At higher temperatures, the differences the primers made were very small and largely powder dependent. Only at lower temperatures did primer performance show large variations independent from the used powders. Interestingly, the Fed 215 was the only primer that kept its ignition power well into 'cold' territory, all others dropped of steeply as 0 degrees Celsius was approached. At 40 degrees Celsius, all primers showed more or less the same performance.



Actually i have seen charts where the fed.215 gives about 20-25% higher pressure and are 35-50% faster from -50 to +50 celcius then the cci250.

But if it does any difference depends as you say on the specific cartridge and powder/bullet chosen.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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404bearslayer
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: 450_366]
      #153659 - 14/02/10 03:18 PM

450-366,

I don't doubt your observations. The above mentioned tests were done with regular Norma powders (Norma did the test). Might be quite different with other powders - with primers you simply have to do chronograph tests to see which ignite a particular powder/bullet/case combo best. I have even observed differences depending on how hot a load was - certain primers worked better at hotter loads, others were better for soft loads. However, your info must have averaged the pressure / velocity values over the entire temperature range. I have shoot Fed 215 and CCI 250 (and WLRM) in comparison at ambient temperature and the difference in velocity was usually around 15-30 f/s, never more. In my .404, the CCI 250 gave actually better velocity then the Fed 215 (powder was H 4350). With Norma 203-B and a light bullet, it was the other way around, but the difference in speed and pressure was not large. I suspect you might have misread the data. I can think of no primer that can make a load 50 % faster then with another primer ... .

Something that surprised me personally once: Across all calibers I shoot, the Fed 215 was best for Bofors powders (Alliant / Norma / Rottweil), while CCI and RWS worked best with Hodgdon /ADI powders. I had therefor basically stopped using WLRM as they never got me the low velocity spreads I was getting with the other primers. Well, in order to duplicate the Hornady Light Magnum loads for my .30-06, I needed to use a (high-energy/low pressure) hybrid powder, in this case Norma URP. I threw all my favorite primers at it and got horrible velocity spreads and awful groups. Because I had some left, I used the WLRM primers, and, voila, very tight velocity spreads and consistent 1/4 MOA groups. You could downright 'feel' that that combo worked well - where the other primers ignited rough and inconsistent, with URP/WLRM it just made 'swoosh'. On the other hand, when I wanted to use URP for my .404 Jeffrey, I had to find out that neither primer, including the WLRM, could properly ignite the powder in that case, simply didn't work at all.

So, hot or not so hot primers are not the issue, you just have to try and measure velocity spreads - the tighter they are, the better powder and primer are matches in a particular case.

Edited by 404bearslayer (14/02/10 03:53 PM)

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450_366
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153677 - 14/02/10 08:11 PM

Sorry, i wasnt clear on it but it was the primer that was faster/higher, not a load.

But it didnt say how much titanium or other "metal" it had added. And it wasnt the fastes from +10c and up, but it was the one that made the least difference from +10c and down on that particular load.

The WLRM gave higher speed from +35c and up, and was hotter then the fed.215.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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404bearslayer
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: 450_366]
      #153702 - 15/02/10 12:44 AM


Just keep in mind that the published tests on primer heat are not useful for selecting a primer, you have to try which one works best for your particular load. The heat of the primer only seems to be of real importance at sub-zero temperatures. Another test I read checked for primer performance on frozen ammo - the Federal came out on top here as well, while especially the CCI non-magnum primers showed performance problems. If you hunt at the north pole, then the Fed 215 is apparently the primer to go, irregardless of other considerations .

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RigbyUser
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Re: Best magnum rifle primer for large cases [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #167477 - 09/09/10 09:53 PM

I use Fed 215 as a matter of course in 7mm Mag, 375H&H, 458 Mag and 500 Jeff. These seem to work as well as anything in the smaller calibers and in my mind they are brilliant in the big Jeffrey case.

These are a great primer, although to be fair, I've used CCI's and Remington 91/2 Mags in the smaller calibers and couldn't pick the difference. In the Jeffrey case I noticed the odd hangfire with the Rems and so have stuck with Federal ever since, after all, why mess with success.

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