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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Hawaiian_Hunter
.224 member


Reged: 25/02/04
Posts: 19
Loc: MAUI NO KA OI
A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle
      #73763 - 13/03/07 08:36 PM

I just wanted to share pictures of my latest acquisition a Lee-Enfield based 45-70 rifle put together by Navy Arms. I have dubbed her "Smelly (SMLE) Nelly". Nope, not for elephants, just the local wild boar, and wild cattle using hard cast 500 grainers at about 1400 fps.




Here's a couple interesting articles on this rifle:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/kingandcountry/index.asp
http://www.chuckhawks.com/gibbs_summit.htm

--------------------
Illegitimus Non Carborundum

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Savuti_One_Shot
.300 member


Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Hawaiian_Hunter]
      #73776 - 14/03/07 12:57 AM

HH,
I got one of the first of these about 3-4 years ago. Mine is built on a No 4 instead of the No 1 L.E. as yours is.
I installed the military peep that was standard on the No 4s and haven't looked back.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26850
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #73787 - 14/03/07 03:25 AM

The #3 will handle any loads up to about 44,000CUP range. You will find in the manuals that even loads listed for the Ruger, Browning and Siamese Mausers are usually held to about 36,000CUP. By judicious loading, you will be able to load your #3 .45/70 to where you won't want to shoot it due to recoil. Sticking with Elver action-type loads is probably a good idea. This will allow loads with 400gr. jacketed bullets to just over 2,000fps, and 350gr. to 2,200fps. Check out the data in Accurate Arms site or manal.
: A #4 will generally handle ammo loaded to approximately the same level as a .308 Wincester. We've used these actions for long range shooting in both .308 and more recently, rebarreled to .223.
; Some time ago, there as an article in "Rifle" magazine on an Enfield being re-barreled to .458 and chambered for the .45 2.4" case (.45/90Win). Either chambering makes for excellent useage for North American heavy game with easy to procure, resonably strong actions that are dirt cheap to buy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1407
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Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #73813 - 14/03/07 08:25 AM

Veeerrry Interesting...

Are these still available and what is the cost? I'd like one!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Hawaiian_Hunter
.224 member


Reged: 25/02/04
Posts: 19
Loc: MAUI NO KA OI
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: luv2safari]
      #73832 - 14/03/07 02:02 PM

Quote:

Veeerrry Interesting...

Are these still available and what is the cost? I'd like one!



Gibbs Rifle Comopany a subsidiary of Navy Arms went under about 3 years ago but these Frontier Summit rifles are still seen on the online auction sites if you keep your eyes pealed. Here's a couple on GunsAmerica:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/classifieds/none/_976851938.aspx
http://www.gunsamerica.com/classifieds/none/_976771042.aspx

Hey SOS, please pardon my ignorance but how do you tell the differance between the No.1 & No. 4 Enfields? Mine's a 1941 Lithgow. What makes the No. 4 stronger than the No.1 THANKS!

--------------------
Illegitimus Non Carborundum

Edited by Hawaiian_Hunter (14/03/07 07:34 PM)

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3548
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Hawaiian_Hunter]
      #73835 - 14/03/07 02:35 PM

Here is a link to a photo of the No.4 Lee Enfield rifle. Compare the action to that in the posts above.



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Hawaiian_Hunter
.224 member


Reged: 25/02/04
Posts: 19
Loc: MAUI NO KA OI
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #73849 - 14/03/07 07:20 PM

Is this a No. 4 ?




--------------------
Illegitimus Non Carborundum

Edited by Hawaiian_Hunter (14/03/07 07:32 PM)

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Savuti_One_Shot
.300 member


Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Hawaiian_Hunter]
      #73856 - 15/03/07 12:57 AM

No, that's a No 1. The differnces are obvious when seen side by side. I'll try to get some photos and post them. The No 1 was the empire's battle rifle from pre WWl and was made in Australia (Lithgow) and India (Ishapore) as well as Britain.
U.K. replaced it with the No 4 circa 1938 and they were made in the US (Savage) and Canada (Long Branch) as well as England.
However the Aust and Indian arsenals continued producing the No 1s thru WW2 to equip their troops.

One note: Magazines are NOT interchangeable between the 2.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3548
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #73860 - 15/03/07 01:22 AM

Boy, no rest for the wicked!

Here's the two actions, No.1 at the top, No.4 below.




BTW, I agree the SMLE action is a good low-budget candidate for upgrading to a larger-bore medium-pressure cartridge. I re-barrelled one to take a wildcat .375 on the .444 Marlin case, kinda like the .375 JDJ but without the Jones royalties!
It shoots a 270gr Hornady at 2270 fps for over 3000 ftlbs ME. It has taken numerous large boars with that load, and 3 buffalo with 285gr Grand Slams to date. Not bad for a 'smelly', hey!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26850
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #73864 - 15/03/07 02:08 AM

I've always been interested in the .375 on the .444 case- Ken Waters built one up many years ago, around the same time I turned the belts off some .350 Rem Mag and opened them to .375. Ken called his the .375 Express.
: Either aciton would be just fine depending on where on kept his pressures.
: With the .45 calibres, by the time you're up to around 43,000PSI, the recoil or case capacity usually stops any further progression. It is impossible to get enough 3031 or 4895 into a .45/70 case to be too heavily loaded for the #3, let alone a 4.
: A very nice feature of these actions, is they are about the fastest bolt guns to operate, and the extractor will handle about any case from the .223 to the .45/70.
: The magazine boxes can have metal or delrin/nylon liners glued, screwed or soldered in, then the lips bent to hold and feed a wide range of rounds.
; Anyone know offhand where I might pick up a couple magazines - #3 and #4?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (15/03/07 02:09 AM)

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Savuti_One_Shot
.300 member


Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #73875 - 15/03/07 04:37 AM

Daryl,
http://www.e-gunparts.com/product.asp?chrProductSKU=195680
http://www.e-gunparts.com/product.asp?chrProductSKU=195690

Luv2,
When they were still making them MSRP was $379. No idea what they'll bring on the secondary market.

As stated above, I wouldn't worry about any theoretical difference between the 2 actions. Aesthetically the No 1 wins hands down, but for shootability I much prefer the ghost ring on the No4. I would keep loads at or below the "Marlin" level according to Hornady. The mag length limits bullet choice, I have feeding problems with even the 400 A-frame, and at 8 lb 13 oz it's more suitable with the 300-350 grainers.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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Hawaiian_Hunter
.224 member


Reged: 25/02/04
Posts: 19
Loc: MAUI NO KA OI
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #73919 - 15/03/07 01:16 PM

SOS- what's your favorite loads in your rifle? THANKS!

--------------------
Illegitimus Non Carborundum

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dale
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Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
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Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Hawaiian_Hunter]
      #73922 - 15/03/07 01:58 PM

Savuti one shot's pictures



[IMG]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i212/dalesword/other%20people%20stuff/Enfield004.jpg[/IMG]

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Hawaiian_Hunter
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Reged: 25/02/04
Posts: 19
Loc: MAUI NO KA OI
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: dale]
      #73936 - 15/03/07 05:18 PM

I must agree the No. 1 is much more esthetically pleasing. I've see the different cocking piece on both types though so not model specific I guess.

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Illegitimus Non Carborundum

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Hawaiian_Hunter]
      #73958 - 16/03/07 03:37 AM

HH,
The cocking piece varied from model to model and within models. Don't forget, this rifle was used from 1888 to the late 50s in essentially the same configuration.

I can't say I have favorite loads in this rifle, since I have several 45-70s and try to develop a load or 2 that's acceptable to all of them. Most recently I was working with Benchmark since I have a lot of it.
53 gr, 400 A-frame, Fed215 for 1946 f/s
61 gr, 300 Partition, " " for 2228
54 gr, 350 X, "" for 1924
53 gr, 405 CP/WFN, " " for 1950

Goof luck
SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26850
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: A Poor Man's Big Bore Rifle [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #73967 - 16/03/07 06:14 AM

In bolt guns only, I've gone to 51.5gr. H4198 with a 400gr. Barnes bullet for 2,150fps. The same load runs well over 2,200fps with the various 350gr., from the Barnes "X" to the 350gr. Speer and Hornady.
: I use these same loads in my .458 2".
: In a Siamese Mausr .45/70, we worked up to my favourite (at that time) .458 2" load using H335 with 350gr. Hornady and 400gr. Barnes bullets. The charge was 68gr. for 2,150fps with 400gr. and 2,260fps with the 350's. Since 51.5gr. of H4198 gave the same velocities, I've switched to that faster burning Hodgdon "Extreme" powder. This load was safe in both the .45/70 Mauser and my .458 2" Mauser, Indeed, I even used the same load with 510Gr. Winchesters in the 458 2" M98 for 2,049fps. My .458 2" had a 3/8" leade ahead of the chamber, allowing all bullets to be seated well out. This effectively increased available powder space, as if the cae was longer than 2". No-leade chambered .45/70's should be worked up very carefully form below these loads. Normaly, one runs into case capacity problems before excessive pressures show. If one keeps powder burning rates at approximately 3031 or slower, you cannot run into pressure problems. Do not use old brass - only newly manufactured brass.
: Any data from any major companies for Marlin rifles would be a starting point for properly made Enfields barreled to .45/70. I suggest looking over Accurate Arms data.
: Work up from below and never use maximum data without previous load development. Always start from below, no matter where you get the data from.
: SOS - thanks or the links for magazines - now ordered. The side picture of the 2 actions is the best descriptor - quite vivid in the differences.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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