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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Huge 4 bore pump gun--
      #10354 - 28/02/04 03:30 PM

Got these pics from Big Al, of his huge 4 bore pump.
Built in Russia.We are going to get him some brass made
from our wildcating stuff so he can shoot it.
THIS WOULD ALSO WORK FOR 700 HE, 12GA FH, 700 NE, 600 NE, 577 NE, NYATI,600OK, 8 GA, ETC.
It has front locking lugs,as seen in picture,
weighs 15 lbs, and I think it is neat.Where are there more of these??? This can take huge cases.Ed.



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: hubel458]
      #10378 - 29/02/04 01:19 AM

15#! Don't you need a gun bearer for that club? It is evident to me that all that is a handloading propositon only. Must be a labor of love.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: 475Guy]
      #10420 - 29/02/04 01:32 PM

475--Al has had that for couple of years and says
he will do anything reasonable to shoot it.He is big enough to carry it I think.Yes it is fun thing, even for me
getting a case to fit.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: hubel458]
      #10429 - 29/02/04 02:40 PM

Ed, if he is big enough to carry that club comfortably, I'd like to have him on my side. Is he big as Sasquatch?

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: 475Guy]
      #10433 - 29/02/04 03:40 PM

He is the biggest AL in Delaware I think.He even wants to get a 1 bore punt gun built.He keeps on he will have to
buy powder by the barrel.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: hubel458]
      #10646 - 02/03/04 02:56 PM

Some more info about Tula 4 bore pump gun. Now the measurements we have found don't match the metric designation very close. I am wondering if someone
rebored and/or rechambered them..We found another one in
extreme NW upper Michigan.Will have some more pics to post later.He measured bore at .938.That is on the smaller end
of the scale for 4 bores.Ross's Evans is .975 and
Mickey's Imperial bullet is .983.
His is smooth bore. The choke
measures .888, which makes it quite a tight full choke.
Barrel is removable and the 4 locking lug bolt, locks into
the end of the barrel extension. All one piece with the barrel.You could build NE calber barrels and with that locking system, run bolt action pressures. Chamber is cut almost straight for paper or plastic case.About 1.050 for base and about 1.040 neck.Will get accurate measurements next couple weeks.He also had a brass case in his collection that was different than Mickey's
Imperial case, and wouldn't fit his gun either.He and Al both need cases, and getting these sises sorted out so we can build cases from 20mm brass, that can fit them and others, is really interesting.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (02/03/04 03:00 PM)

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RNS
.224 member


Reged: 20/10/03
Posts: 27
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: hubel458]
      #10657 - 02/03/04 04:52 PM

Ed
Do you have enough projects to work on yet If not let me know and I will try to help you out. I have 3 kids I could send you to keep you busy.

RNS

--------------------
The 550 Magnum Home page
http://hometown.aol.com/goldcoins1/myhomepage/index.html

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: RNS]
      #10734 - 03/03/04 09:40 AM

Neal--I have done the kids, 4 of them.Got to
get some of my wild ideas working.Never enough time.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: RNS]
      #10934 - 05/03/04 12:40 PM

We got a picture from Mike of a Tula with the barrel slid out, so you can see the barrel extension and the
bolt with locking lugs, that lock into the extension.Ed.



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: hubel458]
      #11041 - 06/03/04 03:37 PM

Got first 4 bore case made------
Here is pic of one---It is 4th in the picture.For Karl's
friend I included a 30-06 1st for comparison, 458 Win
2nd, 700 HE 3rd, 4 Bore 4th, and 1000 He last.This 4 Bore
case is .975 bore(Can be made from .935 to 1.025),Rim is 1.160 inches, and .85 in thick for headspace.Neck 1.015.
Base is 1.078 and can't go smaller without a 2 inch dies
and hydraulic press(Huge investment).Ross' Evans is .975.
Millar's is smaller, and Mickey's Imperial is .983.
Al and Mikes Tulas are .938 -------- I favor on all new ones going to 1.000, so as to get closer to actual 4 bore size and it is the easiest size to make,
from the brass. This being made from 20mm, is tough drawn brass that will last a lifetime, just like the 1000 HE
belted case built from same..Ed.




--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: hubel458]
      #11248 - 09/03/04 02:54 PM

A big 4 bore action that John could make, if he had it in
hand to program the machines?? We will try to get next
to one..Ed.



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: hubel458]
      #11250 - 09/03/04 03:13 PM

Ed, your pal is a big dude. How much does that monstrosity of a falling block weigh?

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: 475Guy]
      #11257 - 09/03/04 06:35 PM

475--Gun weighs 25-26 lbs.He is a friend of Kent Lamont
whose gun it is, and they shot loads developing 19,000 ft
lbs.Now that sounds like a lot, but Rob's 700BMG Imp and
my 700HE can put out 22,000 ft lbs.
Another example is the The Borchardt falling
block action alone at over 12 lbs, that Rob is going
to use on 12GA FH.And it is big enough for 4bore....Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: hubel458]
      #11270 - 10/03/04 02:48 AM

Well, Ed, I think I just found the upper limit for me in hand carried stuff. I would need a caisson for that.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: 475Guy]
      #11497 - 14/03/04 02:33 PM

475--BGReed--All--Got some more info and here is another picture of falling block.It is Kent Lamonts gun,
that C watts took pictures of.
Clayton Nelson made action and he doesn't make them anymore....I am checking to see if
a way can be found to get it reproduced.It is a scaled up
Farquarson.They made it a 1.000 inch bore not a smaller
one.(Geez all great minds think alike).They used turned cases.I am in favor of going bigger than the shotshell
.935-.938 bore size also.And there still is Borchardt,
And those building there own actions, and Big AL and
Mike with the Tulas to be set up with good 4 bore brass and barrel combination.

Now about barrels.Pacnor said they can make 4 bore barrels,
but the rifling would only be .010 as they use button.
we'd have to pay for tooling.Krieger makes a .936 4 bore,
and said they'd make bigger bores if we buy tooling. They use cut rifling could make rifling proper debth for that big a bore(.012 to .016).And Pacnor said we should consider Krieger for that reason.Krieger would give a break for
bulk order, so if enough are doing it it will offset tooling.Greggs friend wants to make barrels so it
is going to get interesting this year, I think.In pic you can see loaded rounds in the bag, in foreground.Ed.



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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BGReed
.224 member


Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 8
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: hubel458]
      #11541 - 15/03/04 04:00 AM

Ed,

Finally found your post check out my post under double rifles for the book on rebounding locks for side hammer guns.

As far as actions go I think the easiest to build would be something on the order of a New England Firearms or H&R single shot shotgun type. This would be similar to what Stanley carried when he was looking for Livingston. Or possibly up scaling a sharps 1876 action, however this would be a black powder only situation as far as preassures go.

Alittle more study also answered a question for me when we spoke and you mentioned that you book showed the 4 bore at a 4" case length whereas John Millar had made his a 41/4" case length because his was considered a nitro load rather than a standard. (man this old timers not standardizing things really make it tough to come up with some real difinative answers and solutions.

So I guess my thought would be to go with the .962 bore diameter with a 41/4" case length if it is possible to get that out of the 20mm brass that we talked about.

The other reason I favor this is I will probably use cast lead bullets since I'm looking at a double and they don't particularly like mono metals and I don't know of anyone building a lead core FMJ in this size.

As for bob building barrels he is still looking for one motor that has reverse. we are also pricing what the gun drills and reamers will cost in this diameter. (not cheap I can guarantee)

Anyway as it progresses it answers some questions and brings up others.

Gregg

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: BGReed]
      #11546 - 15/03/04 05:33 AM

Gregg--Glad you found that book.That will help for sure, you guys building break actions from scratch..Mickey's
Imperial case is 4.25 also, but a .983 bore.Ross' Evans
is .975 and 4 in long.The longest I will be able to make is
4.1 in. And I would prefer to make them as big bored as possible to keep the side angle right...IE if bore is
in the smaller range then base should be smaller, but to make base smaller to match smaller bore takes a hydraulic press and 2 inch dies.And subjecting the case heads to that
extra working shortens case life.If they can be done with my present, no huge strain process, these case in regular 4 bore loadings will never wear out.Even higher pressures they will go a hundred rounds(30-40K).My personal favorite
is an inch, but making it .983 to match Imperial would still give be within specs, to give it
the right slant to the sides, and case could be still used for folks having the Imperial chambering that London Guns made for their run of 4 bores...The 4.1 case
would fire in 4.25 chamber fine.Being this development
process is slow, your friend will probably get going
as fast as any others needing barrels.And him starting out with a 4 bore, and not having huge investment in hundreds of other tooling, won't be too bad.IE others are reluctant to do new stuff , because they have so much invested in
tools for their present sales, to want to add something new..Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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Robgunbuilder
.275 member


Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: BGReed]
      #11547 - 15/03/04 05:40 AM

I now have the 12 GA From Hell reamer and Called Pac-Nor this week. Chris says they hope to have my barrel done by next friday. Seems their 12 Bore reamer died and they had to make a new one themselves. Once I get it and the guages, everything goes off to Borchard for fitting. I will do the extractor system, final finishing and blueing as well as make the stock. May not be long now! By the way, that huge action sure looks like a scaled up Ruger #1. John and I talked about that quite a bit, but we ran out of steam on actually doing it.-Rob

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: Huge 4 bore pump gun-- [Re: Robgunbuilder]
      #11557 - 15/03/04 08:18 AM

Rob--It has elements of both Ruger and Farquarson.
the pivot on bottom is outside like Farquarson.Kent says
the hammer and firing pin, etc is more like Ruger.
This action being done and working, it might be a little easier to program machines to make it.Glad we are getting closer on the 12GA FH.I may have action ready to do testing
in a month or so.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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