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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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NitroXAdministrator
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Hunting Ethics - Polls
      #858 - 13/01/03 12:45 PM

At the moment on another forum site there is a raging debate on ethics and whether it is OK to shoot game over waterholes and other "ethical" issues have been raised.

I thought it might be a good idea to see what people actually think and also actually do.

These polls are anonymous so you do not have to comment, just vote truthfully. Comments are welcome though. Please try to reply to the actual post you are commenting on here so the "threads" can be followed by others.

Here's looking for some interesting results.

(PS These threads may be best viewed in the "threaded" mode - see box above to the right)

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re:Ethics - Poll 1 A Hunting over waterholes? [Re: NitroX]
      #859 - 13/01/03 12:48 PM

Is it OK or ethical to hunt and shoot game over waterholes?



Is it OK to hunt and shoot game over a waterhole?
You may choose only one
Yes
No
Depends on circumstances - please comment.


Votes accepted from (01/12/06 05:24 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39326
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Ethics - Poll 1 B - Actually HUNTED over water [Re: NitroX]
      #860 - 13/01/03 12:51 PM

Have you ACTUALLY shot or hunted game over a waterhole?




Have you actually SHOT game over a waterhole?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (01/12/06 05:24 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Ethics - Poll 2 A Fenced game properties [Re: NitroX]
      #861 - 13/01/03 12:54 PM

Is it sporting to hunt game in a property surrounded by high game fences?




Please assume the game is not supplementary fed, the property is reasonably large, the game is not newly released on the farm and the terrain has some difficult sections eg thick bush.
Is it sporting to hunt game in fenced game properties?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (01/12/06 05:24 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Ethics - Poll 2 B Have you hunted behind wire? [Re: NitroX]
      #862 - 13/01/03 12:57 PM

Have you hunted behind wire?




Again, irrespective of your vote on ethics, have you hunted fenced properties?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (01/12/06 05:24 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39326
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Re: Ethics - Poll 3 A Use of spotlights on leopard [Re: NitroX]
      #863 - 13/01/03 12:59 PM

Is it sporting to hunt leopard using a spotlight and bait at night?



Is it OK to use bait and a spotlight to hunt leopard?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (01/12/06 05:24 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Ethics - Poll 3 B Hunted leopard with a light? [Re: NitroX]
      #864 - 13/01/03 01:00 PM

Have you actually hunted leopard with a spotlight at a bait?




Have you hunted leopard this way?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (01/12/06 05:24 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39326
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Re:Ethics - Poll 4 A Shooting from a vehicle? [Re: NitroX]
      #865 - 13/01/03 01:02 PM

Is it sporting to shoot game from the vehicle?



On safari is it OK to shoot game from the vehicle?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (01/12/06 05:24 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Ethics - Poll 4 B Shot an animal from vehicle? [Re: NitroX]
      #866 - 13/01/03 01:05 PM

During your safari(s) have you shot at least one animal from the vehicle without getting out first?


On your safaris have you shot at least one animal from the vehicle?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (01/12/06 05:24 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
Loc: Vermont, USA
Re: Hunting Ethics - Polls [Re: NitroX]
      #894 - 14/01/03 03:45 AM

John,

I think a lot of people fail to realize the real needs and ways of animals. Most animals keep a defined territory. Granted these can be of different size depending on the species but they STAY in these territories, a fence does not keep them there.

In reality, very few animals are truely migratory. If there is food and water, they will establish a territory within range of such.

I've observed enough animals to see they stay within their own established boundaries even when pursued by preditors. I know I can go back to that same core area the next day or a few hours later and still find that same animal quite near the same spot I first saw it.

So how much acerage is needed to define a fair chase or free animal? How much acerage does a steenbuck need? How much acerage does a kudu need? An impala? A buffalo? There are plentiful studies available that do study individual species and their actual range. They are all territorial so many times I see no relevance in the fence issue.

Are high fences really a fence in our minds? Food for thought.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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SafariHunt
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Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 468
Loc: Pretoria RSA
Re:Ethics - Poll 1 A Hunting over waterholes? [Re: NitroX]
      #895 - 14/01/03 03:57 AM

Waterholes depends on circumstances :
What game are you hunting at the waterhole how are you hunting them rifle or bow.

If bow then yes it is ethical fro Africa couple of guys have stalked and has been succesfull but trophy wise it hasn't been that great the guys did it to see if they can.
So bowhunting I would say ethical.

With rifle I would and I have shot warthogs anytime. and will do it again.

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"


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Mpofu
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Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re:Ethics - Poll 1 A Hunting over waterholes? [Re: SafariHunt]
      #897 - 14/01/03 06:05 AM

I believe this is very much a personal thing.
I would not hunt in a fenced area, as I would not feel I have actually hunted a ' real ' wild animal.
Water holes ? I was brought up to respect animals at water holes, and thus will not shoot at a water hole.
Having said that, if a hunter chooses to do the above, that is his choice, and far be it from me to try and tell him otherwise. To do so, would make me no different to the antis
ie.. forcing my opinions on others.
M.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Ethics - Poll 1 B - Actually HUNTED over water [Re: NitroX]
      #901 - 14/01/03 02:48 PM

OK my comments on this. I have hunted impala and attempted to take a kudu from a highseat over a waterhole.

I voted "Depends" as to whether it is ethical or sporting, which by the way is the same thing to me.

It depends to me - if you sit all day on the ONLY water or have hunters sitting ALL day on all waterholes, that to me isn't sporting. We basically drove around and stalked and tracked game in the mornings and evenings and then sat for a while at the water. We were hunting hartebeest and having pushed them hard for a day or two knew they would have to go to water. And they did, at the other main waterhole, and the second time, just before we arrived.

The game certainly was skittish enough at the waterhole especially kudu which came in, drunk, and left always quickly. Warthog were a lot sillier. They also like to wallow of course. Impala again weren't as alert as kudu.

We shouldn't confuse human behaviour with animal behaviour. A human seeing a waterhole in the heat of the day thinks, what a lovely place to spend some hours. A prey animal thinks, what an ideal place to get ambushed by a carnivore, gets in, drinks and leaves quickly.

Elephants are one of the few exceptions of course having no real predator except for man.

Anyway here's pic to enjoy or nash one's teeth too whichever your preference is




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Marty
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 123
Loc: Darwin. NT, Australia
Re: Hunting Ethics - Polls [Re: AspenHill]
      #903 - 14/01/03 06:19 PM

In reply to:

Most animals keep a defined territory. Granted these can be of different size depending on the species but they STAY in these territories, a fence does not keep them there.



If thats the case why does the proprietor go to the expense and effort of building the fence if they would stay there anyway?

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__________________________________


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SafariHunt
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Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 468
Loc: Pretoria RSA
Re: Hunting Ethics - Polls [Re: Marty]
      #904 - 14/01/03 07:03 PM

Marty,

You have a good point ! Most animals most bigger ones acutually don't have a fixed teritory for example kudu or shall I say most browsers. They move behind the food so there is nothing from stopping them to go into another property and making a new owner very happy especially when it is expensive game.

Small game like steenbok do have a fixed teritory. Now Marty I can maybe try and convince you that fenced hunting is still hunting depending on the property. Proper ranches are big enough that you would never see the fence most game in that property didn't even exist there naturally in numbers and some species has even been introduced. Safaris of 30 days plus are a thing of the past no-one has got the time or the money. In the old days without fences hunters would trek from region to region with some places not even spotting a animal in a whole day.

Today game is concetrated and there is actually a bigger population of game in RSA than there ever was before white man set foot in Africa this has been done with proper game managemnet and everyone trying theuir best to look after their game. Without fencing there would be poaching and just plain anarchy where pople would clash with the animals. RSA as a country is just not big enough to sustain animal and man in one big environmnet.

YOu have a betetr chance of picking up a great kudu trophy than hunting somewhere where there are no fences you get value for your money I mean you pay $300 per day sure some people can afford it and don't care but what about the guy who can just make it for one trip in his lifetime that week that he is going to spend he would at least get 5 animals and decent one's too.

The best I can do for you in RSA 48 000 Hectares next to the Kruger Park with no border fence and that being a huge peive of land where game roam free in and out of the park. Even there we would have a bigger struggle to find a 55" kudu compared to a proper game ranch of around 5000 hectares. A lot of people will tell you how big 5000 hectares is and how easy you can get lost.

As for the watherholes and shooting game at it I have only shot warthogs at the water and that will stay that way with only warthogs.

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"


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Westley_Richards
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Reged: 03/01/03
Posts: 33
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Re: Hunting Ethics - Polls [Re: NitroX]
      #1076 - 18/01/03 09:36 AM

I believe that a lot of what is ethical in hunting comes from the sporting ethics of the English. I believe an example is that if trout cannot be caught using a dry fly cast upstream then they simply cannot be caught that day, and anything else is poaching. I rather like their sense of fair play. I have hunted with others where the sense is to kill an animal no matter what or how. I have not found these hunts to be as enjoyable. I guess it's a personal decision and as long as I am comfortable with the ethics of a particular hunt and hunting partners and assuming it's legal then I am ok with it. We all can kill, it is the chase or 'sport' of hunting that keeps me out there.
WR

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It's in the salt.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Hunting Ethics - Polls [Re: Westley_Richards]
      #1262 - 25/01/03 02:54 PM

BTT for any new members

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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BOWHUNR
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Reged: 25/01/03
Posts: 27
Loc: Omaha, NE USA
Re: Hunting Ethics - Polls [Re: NitroX]
      #1279 - 26/01/03 11:31 AM

NitroX,

On my first and only safari to Zim. we did not, nor was it offered to me to hunt over water holes. There was an older gentleman in our camp that was hunting over them on a daily basis. Do I think it is ethical? Sure. There are very few N.A. hunters that have not hunted whitetailed deer from a stand over a food plot (corn,clover,soy beans,etc.). Maybe I've been kept in the dark, but I can't recall anyone ever calling me unethical for this practice. I guess what I'm getting at is, what's the difference??

BOWHUNR

--------------------
Kudu, it's not just for breakfast anymore!


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re:Ethics - Poll 1 A Hunting over waterholes? [Re: NitroX]
      #1415 - 02/02/03 07:40 AM

I voted for depends, and this is why!

Though I see nothing wrong in hunting over water, especially if there are several sources of water, any more than I do watching a feed field or a deer trail between bedding, and feeding areas. Water is just one more thing every animal uses, and is no different than any strategy used to find an animal, that is available. Things like Gemsbok can do well without water, but most have to come to water, the same way they have to go to feeding areas.

I have seen posts by pepole who don't consider this as fair chase, yet they see nothing wrong with hunting the "HIGH SEASON" which is in the HOT, DRY months when water is starting to dry up,and grass is burned off, concentrating game, in areas close to water. I see this as the same thing.

I think more should be made of doing what you can to make a very clean, humane kill with as little suffering to the animal you are hunting, than hunting near water, or useing guns that are too small for the animal you seek. IMO, one should use enough gun, as suggested by Mr. Ruark! IMO, you owe the animal that much!

One thing I find distastefull is shooting anything other than culls,or problem animals from atop a vehicle!

...........Just my two pennies!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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