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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
358 Norma for Gryphon
      #159998 - 05/05/10 05:23 PM



--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gatsby]
      #159999 - 05/05/10 05:26 PM



--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gatsby]
      #160000 - 05/05/10 05:27 PM



--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gatsby]
      #160001 - 05/05/10 05:29 PM



--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gatsby]
      #160003 - 05/05/10 05:31 PM



--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gatsby]
      #160004 - 05/05/10 05:32 PM



--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gatsby]
      #160005 - 05/05/10 05:33 PM



--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gatsby]
      #160008 - 05/05/10 06:35 PM

I picked it up from the `smiths only last Saturday,ran 1/2 a doz shots through it into his dam bank and it feels good too.

I have saved the pics and will give them a good read tonight.
I thank you very much for the effort also Gatsby,very much appreciated as I know what a pain it is to load heaps of pics to a host and then post them.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gryphon]
      #160010 - 05/05/10 07:44 PM

Mere opinion on my part:

shorter than 375 Holland and NO BELT = better head spacing and better ignition/performance.

lower case pressure

BCs of projectiles are better

better "ranging" performance across the spectrum of projies available

requires only a standard length action

a "better all round cartridge"

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1780
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: kamilaroi]
      #160016 - 05/05/10 10:54 PM

Quote:



shorter than 375 Holland and NO BELT = better head spacing and better ignition/performance.




Sorry, though it is shorter than the H&H, it IS a xyz BELTED case! The belt is completely unnecessary on the .358 Norma Mag., as there is sufficient shoulder for headspacing. A similar cartridge on a beltless case like the .404 or 8x68 would have been better, but Norma intended their .358 for the American market, and Americans at that time equated Belt = Magnum, beltless = ordinary.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: kuduae]
      #160020 - 06/05/10 12:55 AM

The solution to the belted case problem had been created in 1915 by Charles Newton: the .35 Newton, which holds five more grains of water than the .358 Norma, has the same over all length as the .30-'06 and has no belt. Charles "Bwana" Cottar used it extensively in Africa. (See "White Hunters: The Golden Age of African Safaris", by Brian Herne)

.30 and .35 Newton cases can be formed from 8X68S brass.

One of the main problems with the cartridge was that it was only available in the Newton rifle, which was too light for the cartridges and had a stock which was prone to split with repeated firing.

Cottar also complained that the magazine floorplate had a bad habit of coming open and spilling ammunition on the ground at the worst possible moment. This is a little difficult to believe, since the follower spring in a Newton rifle is not attached to the floorplate, but to the magazine box. Cartridges cannot be removed from the magazine by opening the hinged floorplate, unless the follower spring is detached from the magazine box as well.

In any case, altering the floorplate latch so that it would not open unexpectedly would not seem to be beyond the abilities of hunters in the field. Duct tape, or its turn of the century equivalent, comes to mind.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26642
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gryphon]
      #160026 - 06/05/10 02:33 AM

Gryphon - years ago in 1973 through 1975 I had a .358 Norma magnum in a ZKK 602, complete with the pop-up peep on the rear receiver bridge.

With the 'normal' .358 NMag powders of the day, 4320, 4350, it would shoot around an inch to about 1 1/2" - certainly good enough for bug game hunting or for shooting coyotes, which is pretty much the only game I shot with it.
After moving down South from northern BC, I used it with cast bullets in the new to me, sport of position competition and won or placed highly several shoots in Sportsman class and made Marksman class with it.
due to it's exceptionally pretty (inside) bore, I was depressed over it's lack of preceision with jacketed bullets. The cast bullets I used in competition shot as well with the peep sight, as jacketed did with a scope - go figure. The gun was as pefectly bedded as I could make it, but still refused to drop below 1", or 1 1/2" with most loads.

Friend at that time, a Bench Rest shooter suggested I try IMR3031 - which I did and found some loads for it, somewhere. I started at 58gr. with a Speer 250gr. and worked up to 62gr. and called that maximum. I didn't have a chronogaph at that time, but it was supposed to be running 2,700fps - about the same as factory ammo.

That load made my .358 come alive. I mounted a 12X scope on it and shot with old Alex Bulhman - beating him overall and just about group for goup one whole day - him shooting his heavy varmint 6x47, and me the, .358 Norma BRNO.

It was absolutely amazing - imagine a big bore like that, shooting 1/4" & sub 1/4", 5 shot groups groups at 100 yards.
So- reason for this post - don't discount powders that don't bulk well - a full case does not always give the best accuracy - sometimes a faster powder can 'fix' a problem yet still match factory ballistics, especially in an 'old' number.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: DarylS]
      #160035 - 06/05/10 06:03 AM

I`m all ears re what you say Daryl and have believed for many years that it is a very undervalued cartridge with many of the modern 'younger brigade' having never heard of it.

As we all know it has punch and I would have loved to have taken it to NZ Tahr hunting with some decent 180 gr pills for so flat longer shooting.
I will have to try and shoot a sambar instead ...hopefully!

I watched a couple two days ago feeding merrily,I had my 7mm with me as I haven't done much in the way of sighting the 358 in and if I had I would have rolled the spikey..I took pics instead!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26642
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Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: gryphon]
      #160036 - 06/05/10 06:38 AM

If Barnes makes a TSX in the 180 to 200gr. range, 3,000fps and over is there for you. I'd think a goat-like animal at long range might be better served with a 225gr. Sierra - fast opener and fairly high BC - but then, the X's would also work I'm sure.

When I had mine, the Extreme Hodgdon powders, ie: Australian (ADI?) powders weren't available. Today, I'd likely try the equivelence of our H4895 or Varget - preferrably the 4895 especially with lighter (or heavier) bullets, looking for an edge in accuracy. It is easily ignited and can also be used in reduced loads without any fear of detonation - to as low at 50% of the max charge - load for rabbits?

Due to the ctg. having much more power than necessary, sacrificing 50 or 75fps for eye-ball accuray accuracy is a good thing, especially when ranges get 'out there'.

Just checked their web site - I see a 200gr. TSX.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (06/05/10 06:43 AM)

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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: 358 Norma for Gryphon [Re: DarylS]
      #160044 - 06/05/10 11:11 AM

Might have to get Frank to run me some 180 hydro`s up,they would be interesting I`m sure,thanks for the wisdom Daryl.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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